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  1. #21
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    She clearly stated in The Second Stage that a woman's sense of identity is found through "love, nurture, home."
    Ah, I see. It's been a long time since I've read any of her crap, but if that's what she means then to her. I always thought that what she meant (and mind you, I never did a close reading) was that real (to her) feminist goals such as equality of pay and so on would not be achieved by identity politics and man/family/heterosexual hating. I got the distinct impression in that book that she meant for men to pick up with the housework too so that women wouldn't be duly burdened with both work and domestic cares. But if that's not what she meant, it doesn't really matter because she is not the final word on feminism by any means.
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  2. #22
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    There is no such thing as Conservative Feminism.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Why do you have a problem with "without judgment"? Why should a woman who wants to be a stay-at-home-mom be judged for that? Or why should a woman who wants to be in the army be judged for that? Or why should a woman who wants to be a CEO of a major corporation be judged for that? I agree, "without impediment" is good. But why not without judgment too?
    Because the whole notion of "without judgement" basically means everybody else has to give up whatever principles they have have in order to accomodate her wants and desires.

    Don't even get me started on women in the military.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Why do you have a problem with "without judgment"? Why should a woman who wants to be a stay-at-home-mom be judged for that? Or why should a woman who wants to be in the army be judged for that? Or why should a woman who wants to be a CEO of a major corporation be judged for that? I agree, "without impediment" is good. But why not without judgment too?
    We judge people all the time, everyone does it. We all have an idea of how things should be. It sounds like you want to neuter everyone's minds.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #25
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    I am getting the impression (from this thread, at least) that a 'conservative feminism' would advocate for a clear separation of 'male' and 'female' activities, but would also advocate for equal social valuation of these respective roles. If this is really what the goal is for a 'conservative feminism', then it is even more idealistic than regular old feminism, because we all know that there will never be equal valuation of those two spheres in a society that highly values public life and accomplishment (and by public I mean public vs private).
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  6. #26
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    We judge people all the time, everyone does it. We all have an idea of how things should be. It sounds like you want to neuter everyone's minds.
    Well. I do, kind of, but I can accept that as not a feasible reality and delete "judgment" and put in "impediment."

    That said, I think that some people's ideas are wrong and harmful. However, as they may believe the same about me, I suppose I have no choice but to stfu and just hope that they don't get in the fucking way.


    Perhaps conservative feminism (or ... libertarian feminism) would not include a cultural attitude shift goal.
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    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    If this is really what the goal is for a 'conservative feminism', then it is even more idealistic than regular old feminism, because we all know that there will never be equal valuation of those two spheres in a society that highly values public life and accomplishment (and by public I mean public vs private).
    Yes that's one of the major fallacies of modernity - the blind glorification of public life to the neglect of private life in the home. One of the main reasons why late modernity has been a total cultural wasteland.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I am getting the impression (from this thread, at least) that a 'conservative feminism' would advocate for a clear separation of 'male' and 'female' activities, but would also advocate for equal social valuation of these respective roles. If this is really what the goal is for a 'conservative feminism', then it is even more idealistic than regular old feminism, because we all know that there will never be equal valuation of those two spheres in a society that highly values public life and accomplishment (and by public I mean public vs private).

    And is an idealistic philosophical position worth anything if it can't actually be translated into real change? I guess that's a question beyond this thread.
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    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    And is an idealistic philosophical position worth anything if it can't actually be translated into real change?
    That's a rather odd argument to make against conservative feminism. That actually applies more to radical feminism more, whose views are so out of touch with reality.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes that's one of the major fallacies of modernity - the blind glorification of public life to the neglect of private life in the home. One of the main reasons why late modernity has been a total cultural wasteland.
    Well, as you seem sympathetic to this conservative feminism, what say you to the contributions of women in literature/art, science, politics, business, and the like? There certainly have been many, and those women are often not sticking to their culturally prescribed roles (glorious and equal to male roles they may be).
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    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

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