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  1. #141
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    GET. OUT.
    Calm down and observe the amount of women that start to enter. Or go ahead and freak out with your Fe and observe how many chicks pass this by.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  2. #142
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    GET. OUT.
    Ha ha haaaa. You have NO idea how often I resist posting that in certain threads.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday
    "When she loved a man again, she would return to normal: a woman that is, whose sexuality would ebb and flow in response to his. A woman's sexuality is, so to speak, contained by a man, if he is a real man: she is, in a sense, put to sleep by him, she does not think about sex." - The Golden Notebook

    True or false?

    And why was Lessing considered a feminist?
    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Never did get an answer to this.....
    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    I dunno. I was hoping someone else might. I actually had a strong physical reaction of the barfing variety when I read that, but I wanted to see what other women who might actually have met "real men" thought. lol

    Thanks for answering!
    I winced when I read it. Not sure I can vocalize why very well, but I'll take a shot at it. I agree that sexuality can be enhanced by interacting with the opposite gender, men bring out a woman's sexuality and vis versa. Note the vis versa, it is a two way street. Being desired increases my awareness of my own sexuality and makes me feel sexy. Knowing that I'm turning someone else on does the same thing.

    But Lessing is wrong about the "she does not think about sex" part, I will often feel spontaneously sexy, my sexuality comes from within me. It can be ramped up by interacting with a man, but it is certainly not "contained by a man". Unless that means turning on a man makes me feel more sexual, I'm not clear on what the author was getting at with that statement. The notion that a "real man" somehow normalizes a woman is bunk.

    I have no idea why Lessing was considered a feminist. Proposing that women's sexuality is something that is contained by a man would not be my idea of feminism. Sexuality is something women own for themselves, it is contained within them.

    Oh, and this thread reads much better if you use the ignore feature on the troll.

  4. #144
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    ^ I definitely agree. Some people declare things feminist that I think have nothing to do with the equality of males and females.. taking the short story "The Yellow Wallpaper" or something like that for instance. It was more about the lack of education on mental illnesses than it was a landmark in feminist writings.

    I have sexuality within myself, but I agree that interacting with men increases this (sometimes.. when I am working with men, my sexuality decreases dramatically.) a bit. I don't think I ever felt 'contained' by a man, even when in love.. I feel more alive, more open, and more robust and confident. A poor choice of words if the author meant anything else.
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  5. #145
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    GET. OUT.

    That's not a very good attitude to have if you are trying to get people's perspectives in a thread entitled "Conservative Feminism?"
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #146
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    I winced when I read it. Not sure I can vocalize why very well, but I'll take a shot at it. I agree that sexuality can be enhanced by interacting with the opposite gender, men bring out a woman's sexuality and vis versa. Note the vis versa, it is a two way street. Being desired increases my awareness of my own sexuality and makes me feel sexy. Knowing that I'm turning someone else on does the same thing.

    But Lessing is wrong about the "she does not think about sex" part, I will often feel spontaneously sexy, my sexuality comes from within me. It can be ramped up by interacting with a man, but it is certainly not "contained by a man". Unless that means turning on a man makes me feel more sexual, I'm not clear on what the author was getting at with that statement. The notion that a "real man" somehow normalizes a woman is bunk.

    I have no idea why Lessing was considered a feminist. Proposing that women's sexuality is something that is contained by a man would not be my idea of feminism. Sexuality is something women own for themselves, it is contained within them.

    Oh, and this thread reads much better if you use the ignore feature on the troll.
    Ah yes.
    Here is some context:
    Then she realizes she is falling into a lie about herself, and about women, and that she must hold on to this knowledge: that when she was with Paul she felt no sex hungers that were not prompted by him; that if he was apart from her for a few days, she was dormant until he returned; that her present raging sexual hunger was not for sex, but was fed by all the emotional hungers of her life. That when she loved a man again, she would return to normal: a woman, that is, whose sexuality would ebb and flow in response to his. A womans sexuality is, so to speak, contained by a man, if he is a real man; she is, in a sense, put to sleep by him, she does not think about sex.
    And a response I found interesting
    How to read this? In the context of Ellas conversations with her father, it is a powerful demand to men to abandon the virgin/whore idea. Her father is another of these many many men who marry a woman they then dont have sex with, and go and shag other women. Ella is saying, as she wants to say to her father: dont you realise that these wives are unable to access their own sexuality without your gentle help and guidance?

    As a modern woman reading this though, I bridle. A normal womans sexuality ebbs and flows in response to her partners? This seems like the recipe for constantly feeling abnormal. Like another version of that terrible lie, that two people in partnership become twin souls, two halves of the same person. It denies a woman any right to experience her sexuality as independent of her (male) partners.

    Every solution raises new problems, I suppose. As Laura said earlier, sexuality can never be solved. I think some people still do believe what Ella says here; I think its damaging.
    Wow, there's a whole forum on this book. I loved it. Except that passage which just jarred and I couldn't believe I was reading it properly.
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    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #147
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    I winced when I read it. Not sure I can vocalize why very well, but I'll take a shot at it. I agree that sexuality can be enhanced by interacting with the opposite gender, men bring out a woman's sexuality and vis versa. Note the vis versa, it is a two way street. Being desired increases my awareness of my own sexuality and makes me feel sexy. Knowing that I'm turning someone else on does the same thing.

    But Lessing is wrong about the "she does not think about sex" part, I will often feel spontaneously sexy, my sexuality comes from within me. It can be ramped up by interacting with a man, but it is certainly not "contained by a man". Unless that means turning on a man makes me feel more sexual, I'm not clear on what the author was getting at with that statement. The notion that a "real man" somehow normalizes a woman is bunk.

    I have no idea why Lessing was considered a feminist. Proposing that women's sexuality is something that is contained by a man would not be my idea of feminism. Sexuality is something women own for themselves, it is contained within them.

    Oh, and this thread reads much better if you use the ignore feature on the troll.

    That passage doesn't make any sense to me, either. How would a (straight) woman's being in a relationship with a man "contain" her sexuality? That seems, uh, counterintuitive to say the least.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #148
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Could use the middle east. While some countries there have political posts held by women some others have none. With the Islamic religion being very conservative as a whole there are still individuals who break the rules. Knowing that, the standard role of a woman is as difficult as the role of a woman in the US. Juggling child care with daily chores and a full time job. We notice the obvious diffrences such as clothing cover and in extreme communities less education.
    They define themselves as very respected. We can't comprehend that in the messages that are sent to us in that they are observed to be oppressed. Yet they see drunkin or drug use inspired abuse or abuse by their own gender by their actions toward one another is equivalent to any abuses we see them having. Drug use and drunkiness is punishable by death and all are covered to prevent, in what their culture calls, a distraction.
    Off the topic, sure. But is trying to eliminate abuse a part of feminism. I certainly see not giving equal schollorships as abuse. My neice is far smarter than those jocks out there on that field.
    I believe Pakistan recently had an assassination. Benazir Bhutto? somethin like that. More than likely it had to do with ideology. Some here want Sarah Palin assassinated. We no longer assassinate over here. We assassinate character. More than likely it has to do with ideology.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  9. #149
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Well. the way I look at it is that woman have always been looked at as inferior in most societies, even since the dawn of man. Up until the 20th century, they couldn't even practice in democratic activities, such as voting, in the U.S. Sure, they had rights in other countries, but it was rare until recently. I don't see feminism as conservative, as it's not a traditional concept. One could argue, though. It's definitely a liberal idea. Blooming with the civil rights movements in the 60's, it was definitely a liberal thing, and people saw it as preposterous and radical. I can't see such a thing as conservative? Liberal and feminism go hand in hand...or feminism reflects liberalism.

    On a personal note, I'm all for feminist rights. Sure, I'll crack a few jokes from anchorman and tell a few feminist jokes, but it doesn't mean I don't think man and woman should be equal in social statuses. I'm all for it, but I wouldn't actively fight for it, as I think it's part of the revolution for it to be a woman's job, clearly.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  10. #150
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    If feminism was ever merely about equality it wouldn't have a gender specific focus in the root word, it would be "equalism" or something.
    I don't wanna!

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