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  1. #101
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    I am not understanding what the difference between 'philosophy' and ideology is, nor why the two are even being related in this instance.
    Granted, if one goes by the standard everyday definition of "ideology" as any body of beliefs concerning political affairs, it can be confusing.

    If we go by the original definition of ideology by Destutt de Tracy: ideologies are bodies of ideas that aim towards the total transformation of society along the lines of an abstract theory that's divorced from reality; and often based upon a more reductionist apporach to issues.

    By contrast; philosophy(in this case social and political) is based upon the critical study of the principles that underlie the right order, both personal and socially. Philosophy is not reductionist by nature, but rather acknowledges the multiplicity of reality. It's also more open-ended then ideology. Rather than aiming towards for the total transformation of the world, philosophy is more interested in providing the proper paradigms from which to address the world.

    How does this apply to this discussion? Quite alot really. I'm arguing about the basic principles of a "conservative" approach to womens' issues - namely the primacy of family duties over more public ones. As I fully acknowledged, this need not mean women staying in the home entirely, but the whatever public affairs women do must revolve around that basic principle. How this works out in reality certainly differs according to circumstances. I'm not laying out a one-size fits all approach to the issue. So Im taking the more philosophical approach.

    By contrast; it seems you, Eileen, and Ivy are taking more the ideological approach - or at the very least try to pigeonhole my views within an ideological perspective. Your sarcastic remark about how my views amount to "constitutive ideological rhetoric" for a male-dominated Capitalist society certainly shows this. If anything this is a classic example of the ideological approach.

    Even with sarcasm aside, the standard response to my arguments have been the insistence of an abstract notion of "equality" for both private and public spheres in the lives of women(and to even an extent men too). Yet as I noted, the concrete reality speaks differently on several levels.

    This goes to very much the heart of "Conservatism" as I understand it. Edmund Burke was a staunch critic of the abstract social theories of the Enlightenment, and how they played out in numerous areas of the world - most famously in France. He argued in favor of tradition precisely because it is based upon the concrete experience of countless generations; and it is utterly foolish for any one person or generation even to claim to have more understanding of the world than that - especially with the complex nature of man and society.

    This doesn't mean, as many like ajblaise argued, an absolute resistance to change. Ironically Burke himself stated, "A state without the means of some change is without the means of its conservation." Rather tradition provides the foundation for change in proper directions and proportions.

    Now as for the "equality" of public and private spheres. Well the orderings of any just(and perhaps we could add any geniunely democratic) society moves from the grassroots up. And the most basic unit that exists at the grassroots is the family. Democracy and justice cannot exist without that strong foundation, since man by nature is a social animal and needs to lives within concrete communities in order to fufill his public duties, not to mention find personal fufilment.

    As Edmund Burke himself stated:

    "We begin our public affections in families. No cold relation is the zealous citizen. We pass on to our neighborhoods and our provincial connections. These are our inns and resting places. Such division of our country as have been formed by habit and not by sudden jerk of authority are so many little images of the great country in which the heart is found something it could fill. The love to the whole is not extinguished by this subordinate partiality...To love the little platoon we belong to in society is the first principle of public affections. It is the first link in the series by which we proceed towards a love to our country and to mankind."
    So by insisting upon a blind abstract "equality" between the family and "public life", you destroy the meaning and significance of both. If you cannot care for those closest to you, you certainly cannot care for those with less connection and attachment to you in the overall society. That's why the primacy of the family is important not only to women specifically, but society in general.

    So that's by and large much of the basic points I've been trying to make within this discussion. I hope this helps clears things up a bit. And by goodness, there's still plenty more I have to address. *sigh* Oh well.

  2. #102
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    There is no such thing as Conservative Feminism.
    Well, that is obviously untrue.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #103
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm View Post
    There is no such thing as Conservative Feminism.
    Well we could make this more interesting and ask the question of whether we're really talking about Conservative feminism, but maybe instead be really talking about Conservative postfeminism.

  4. #104
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    But what's Sarah Palin going to do for women? If she's going to BRING UP women's rights, how is she going to protect them/enhance their expression? Why should anyone vote for McCain/Palin and include their stances on women's rights as a reason for that choice?
    Well, if one agrees that her conservative agenda is in the best interest of women, then that would be a reason to vote for her. If you think that it is the best interest of women to wait until marriage to have sex (enter abstinence only sex ed) and to avoid the emotional (and possibly spiritual) turmoil of abortion then she can definitely be considered a protector of women.

  5. #105
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Wouldn't NOW support "what is in the best interest" of women?
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  6. #106
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Wouldn't NOW support "what is in the best interest" of women?
    Puh. They would support what is in the best interest of liberal, soul-less women!

    But the fact that NOW actually supported a candidate, which I don't think they have done in the past, shows just how much they dislike Palin's conservative feminism.

  7. #107
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well we could make this more interesting and ask the question of whether we're really talking about Conservative feminism, but maybe instead be really talking about Conservative postfeminism.
    Sure, why not.

  8. #108
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Peguy's conservative feminism aside, because I think he and his ideology are another can of worms, it seems to me that "conservative feminists" are likely to believe that the early thrusts of the feminist movement did the job, and that some of its fruits are immoral or unethical (particularly abortion), and that there is really not so much to "fight for" anymore in terms of rights, whereas liberal feminism may always be on the defensive when the Sarah Palins of the world come along because we know we have rights that people want to take away from us (and we see some battles as not won). So conservative feminism often IS a "postfeminism" of sorts--a world in which women have what they need and want, so there's no need for concern regarding it.

    I could be wrong, I guess. It was just a thought I had while trying to stay awake to give the SAT this morning.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  9. #109
    Sniffles
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    I would classify my perspective as more a social philosophy rather than an ideology. Not least of which because one need not be an ideological conservative to agree many of the basic precepts I've described.

    I've mentioned this in my first post here that many early Feminists upheld similar positions, and they can be found across the political spectrum.

    I know I've referenced to Edmund Burke a bit here, since this is supposed to be about Conservative perspectives; but even the philosophical mentor of the radical Liberal tradition Jean-Jacques Rousseau believed in the virtue of womanhood laying within motherhood.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I would classify my perspective as more a social philosophy rather than an ideology. Not least of which because one need not be an ideological conservative to agree many of the basic precepts I've described.

    I've mentioned this in my first post here that many early Feminists upheld similar positions, and they can be found across the political spectrum.

    I know I've referenced to Edmund Burke a bit here, since this is supposed to be about Conservative perspectives; but even the philosophical mentor of the radical Liberal tradition Jean-Jacques Rousseau believed in the virtue of womanhood laying within motherhood.
    You can call it what you want, but I'm calling it a spade.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

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