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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Waah waah waah...

    Public shmublic. Most of the public is comprised of idiots and imbeciles that can't even grasp the concept of present value.

    Do you have the merit to decide what is best for 300 million people? Have you ever led one of the greatest companies of nearly 30000 people to amazing profits and have any evidence whatsoever that you know what the hell you're talking about?

    Because Hank Paulson does, and you don't.

    So shut the fuck up you little ignorant dipshit.

    Gotta love democracy and how something can get voted down if enough idiots oppose the few intelligent people that actually know what they're doing.

    If you don't know what the hell you're talking about, then...

    DON'T TALK.

    It's that simple.

    I'll put it in layman's terms for all of the morons on these forums that never took a finance course:

    1) Most companies do not run on their own money. Most companies are comprised of
    A) Equity--aka what you don't have to pay back--what money was paid to have ownership stake in your company. These people are entitled to their fair share of profits if your company does well, but at the same time, you can sell stake in your company rather than have to pay money back.
    B) Debt--aka money you DO have to pay back. The act of borrowing money using the equity in the company as collateral is called LEVERAGING. Most companies in the financial services industry borrow a LOT more than they issue to shareholders.

    2) Banks are mandated to hold some money in reserves so that depositors that want to withdraw money can. The rest they lend out. Banks can borrow money from the fed at a lower interest rate than they lend, and the difference is their profit. So if you deposit $10 at the bank, and they only have to keep a reserve of 10%, they can borrow $90 extra dollars to lend.

    3) Most other companies in America issue debt in order to make their company look strong to shareholders. If the shareholder gets more of a return for his or her investment, the company will appear stronger, get its credit ratings upgraded, and be able to borrow for less, and it goes upwards in a virtuous cycle.

    4) This is the way business works in America. You borrow money to make more money than you have to pay back. In other words, money+effort=more money.

    5) The most profitable corporations constantly borrow very short term so they can make the most efficient use of their resources.

    6) If those flows of funds stop, entire businesses seize up.

    7) If businesses seize up, people are laid off, and flood into the job market. Because of a larger supply of employees, employers can hire more cheaply. This causes pay cuts, which causes less consumer spending, which decreases profit for the producing companies, which lay employees off to cut costs, who spend less, and down and down we go in a vicious cycle.

    Here's the thing--trickle down economics may or may not work in good times since the rich spend some of that on things rich people spend money on. Mansions, private jets, yachts, etc...

    However--trickle down economics in bad times doesn't trickle down. It RUSHES down. The first people screwed when the guys at the top get screwed aren't the rich Wall Street plutocrats. By not bailing out Wall Street, you would have done NOTHING to those big rich guys, because guess what:

    They STILL would get their severance packages and their golden parachutes. They'd STILL keep their fat paychecks that they collected over the years. Sure, they might lose a bunch of stock options, but you think they'd actually get hurt other than a bruised ego?

    DREAM ON! The first people that pay the price for a company's fall are

    A) anyone indicted on charges. And you can't get indicted for having your firm go bankrupt and putting a bunch of employees out of work. Otherwise nobody would ever start a company. You can't get punished for stupidity. Only for criminal activity. Sure, it's tempting to try and indict someone, but unless they cooked books, you don't have shit on them.

    B) The little guys. You and me. The employees who relied on the firm for a paycheck to fund their kids' college educations, to receive insurance coverage, and all of that good stuff--they're suddenly out fending for themselves.

    The rich are by FAR AND AWAY better off NO MATTER the situation. Did their firm suddenly go bust? Oh, through their HUGE web of networks, they'll find another fat paying position at some other firm (Stan O'Neal just found another position at some private equity firm or hedge fund or whatever I believe), and just pick themselves and dust themselves off. It's not their kids that are suddenly going to be unable to go to college. It's a bunch of employees. Oh well. Too bad. So sad. Wish it didn't happen. See ya.

    Also, what is all of this hatred against the rich? Oh, those thieving Wall Street corrupt plutocrats. They're fooling everyone for their own gain! They're robbing us blind! They're being stupid and we have to pay the bills for their stupidity!

    Yeah, I'm not too thrilled about that. But guess what? Something the presidential candidates won't tell you is that all of the idiots getting their houses foreclosed on are every bit a part of this problem is the greedy Wall Streeters. All of those who committed to opportunistic borrowing on artificially low interest rates to buy ridiculously expensive houses that they could only keep if prices kept going up at their unsustainable rates are also every bit to blame. And just about anyone that took part in any way, shape, or form in the real-estate/credit bubble that just went boom is every bit to blame as Jimmy Cayne and Stan O'Neal and Dick Fuld.

    No, it's "those greedy rich thieves" that take advantage of the poor people.

    Guess what?

    THAT'S CAPITALISM FOR YOU. Welcome to America. Eat or be eaten. Know what the entire point of MARKETING is?

    To take advantage of those that don't know better. To rob the stupid blind. In fact, I'll do the "thieves" of Wall Street one better.

    It is morally wrong to allow idiots to keep their money.

    Those that are well-informed don't need commercials and advertisements to tell them anything. They know the right people, have the right connections, and go from point A to point B with their own resources to make the decisions that leave them better off.

    It's the idiots living down the street from you with big dreams but just running that same rat race believing every get-rich-quick scheme they hear that make all of these industries of "thievery" so profitable!

    If you're relying on your 401(k) as your standalone retirement income, you're one of those idiots. If you're living paycheck to paycheck, you're probably one of those idiots. If you're 9 to 5ing just to "live comfortably", you're one of those idiots. If you watch Suze Orman and buy all of these personal finance books to try and feel better about yourself, you're an idiot. Don't be too ashamed though--most people are!

    Welcome to the duality of capitalism, people. Yes, this IS the land of opportunity. But it's just that--opportunity. Not entitlement. The government can't save you from being stupid. The Wall Streeters know that, the fat CEOs know that, nor the high-ranking managers, or even anyone just starting at the bottom of the ladder as an entry-level drone at any which big bank.

    In return for giving YOU the OPPORTUNITY to get rich, the government also lets every OTHER you (every other you being every other person) do THEIR best to get rich.

    And no matter how many laws are passed, people will ALWAYS find ways of skirting regulations, finding loopholes, hiding revenues or offshoring their accounts.

    No amount of laws or regulations will prevent the booms and busts of our economy without destroying capitalism--which is a beautiful system. It allows someone to come from nothing to being worth billions. The only way to leave yourself better off is to know what the hell you're doing, and to stop bitching.

    The end.

    hilarious... but u can't blame the people for not knowing. the media controls what they know.

    wat do u do ilyak?

    but yeah, this has to be the weirdest week ever. I learned too much about something I wish I never knew.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Because obviously there won't be another economic bust then!
    another furious weekend for paulson and bernanke eh? haha

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post

    So shut the fuck up you little ignorant dipshit.

    .
    That was mature...

    Public shmublic. Most of the public is comprised of idiots and imbeciles that can't even grasp the concept of present value.

    Do you have the merit to decide what is best for 300 million people? Have you ever led one of the greatest companies of nearly 30000 people to amazing profits and have any evidence whatsoever that you know what the hell you're talking about?

    Because Hank Paulson does, and you don't.
    Paulson does not answer to the people who operate under this economy, and will now be immune to any legal action or resistance from the public. Economics is certainly one of those areas I know little about, along with most people in the country. Suffice to say, the system is made so complicated and filled with shadows and mirrors to keep it riding on fake assets that don't exist. Lets also not forget that the many people on wall street and the financial analysts out there still represent the public as well. The point is, the control in this democratic republic and the economy it lives on is suppsoed to be in the hands of THE PEOPLE. It is escaping our hands at a break neck speed, and I'd really argue that it's like looking at a man crossing the event horizon of a black hole. Gee, it looks like he's sitting there on the edge about to get sucked in. In reality, he's all ready consumed by whatever the heck lies beyond it. The situation has escaped the grasp of the ill informed public.

    The entire political and economic situation is an amalgumation of many factors. Pointing at any one factor as the cause is foolhearty. The spending, the lending, the the credit, the shortselling, the derivites, blah blah blah. There's a lot of blame to go around, not the least of which is the ignorance of the average American to what their elected politicians are doing. The politicians who take funds from the companies and banks in return for policies to support their activities. Politicians who encourage them to hand out loans and mortgages to people who obviously can't pay it back.

    It's a lot of ish, and it certainly challenges my patience and resolve to be well informed about the current state of affairs, for the first time ever in my life.

  4. #14
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    ^ Well the market is democratic too.

    If you think the plan was shiet, and the fabric of our democracy was ruined, and bc of that, the outlook of the survival of American democracy and the American nation state is headed for decline now, short the market.

    Most traders in the market were rather skeptical about the plan today too. There weren't enough specifics, and it doesn't deal with the structural issues going on. In fact, I would argue that the market's reaction today to the passage of the plan is rather similiar to your own overall reaction. Skepticism to how much it could help. Without it though, there's no time for skepticism.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    hilarious... but u can't blame the people for not knowing. the media controls what they know.

    wat do u do ilyak?

    but yeah, this has to be the weirdest week ever. I learned too much about something I wish I never knew.
    What do I do? I'm a senior in college, and aspiring quantitative analyst on Wall Street. But now, the tough part is even getting there, merit or not! I want to see Fuld and O'Neal and Cayne burn for fucking things up like this for us upstarts.

    As for a democracy being run by the people...HAH!

    Beware the power of stupid people in large groups. That is all.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    What do I do? I'm a senior in college, and aspiring quantitative analyst on Wall Street. But now, the tough part is even getting there, merit or not! I want to see Fuld and O'Neal and Cayne burn for fucking things up like this for us upstarts.

    As for a democracy being run by the people...HAH!

    Beware the power of stupid people in large groups. That is all.

    I have heard about this sort of attitude on wall street and some economists, negative towards the general public. Interesting to see it first hand...

  7. #17
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    That isn't attitude, Risen. That's reality. America is WAAAAY down on the list in terms of scientists and mathematical aptitude at the k-12 levels.

    We have so many people who don't know shit about economics and finance--the very FOUNDATION of why America is a great nation. We have too many people becoming lawyers and accountants and middle managers, and not enough people actually knowing anything of substance.

    Want me to support democracy more? Revolutionize the educational system so that I am more confident the people going to the polls are voting for the right reasons.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    ^ Well the market is democratic too.

    If you think the plan was shiet, and the fabric of our democracy was ruined, and bc of that, the outlook of the survival of American democracy and the American nation state is headed for decline now, short the market.

    Most traders in the market were rather skeptical about the plan today too. There weren't enough specifics, and it doesn't deal with the structural issues going on. In fact, I would argue that the market's reaction today to the passage of the plan is rather similiar to your own overall reaction. Skepticism to how much it could help. Without it though, there's no time for skepticism.
    Yes, the market is democratic! If the government would leave the market alone and not hook taxpayers/the value of the flippin U.S. dollar for bailing out these idiot banks and companies, the market would correct itself! The market would correct itself! Jimminy Christmas, after all of Bush's yelling and screaming, and the house passing a no vote, we saw them stop holding up the markets. However, there was no doomsday, there was no disaster. If the government would keeps it's nose out of this and stop trying to fiddle around with the free market (the way it did in the depression, prolonging the depression) we'd certainly face a bad recession, but the economy would rebound stronger. All they have done is to hold off the inevitable crash, likely making it WORSE for us later. All they have done is give more power and control to the very same people at the top of this pyramid who created this mess. All they have done is just pave the way for a great stagflation and demise of our dollar.

    Our dollar is going to tank so badly, and it will never rise again given the direction they're taking us in. The price of goods and oil is going to innevitably rise because of it. The ridiculous amount of money they are going to BORROW and PRINT to carry out this bailout (well over a trillion going by the words of many economists and the typical spending decisions of the government) is going to rock the ship like hell. People around the world in this global economy are waking up to the fact that our money represents no real value. The only reason we haven't been dropped into the hole already is because so many countries depend on us to buy their goods and services, and our crash would mean THEIR crash. What this means is (as I said in the bailout topic) the beginning of a new era where the dollar is no longer the world standard, and many more significant changes along with it that most people aren't going to like. Even Putin has said this for Christ's sake. Even Chavez is dancing around in Venezuela, singing on about how socialist Bush has become, and how far down he's driving the country.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Yes, the market is democratic! If the government would leave the market alone and not hook taxpayers/the value of the flippin U.S. dollar for bailing out these idiot banks and companies, the market would correct itself! The market would correct itself! Jimminy Christmas, after all of Bush's yelling and screaming, and the house passing a no vote, we saw them stop holding up the markets. However, there was no doomsday, there was no disaster. If the government would keeps it's nose out of this and stop trying to fiddle around with the free market (the way it did in the depression, prolonging the depression) we'd certainly face a bad recession, but the economy would rebound stronger. All they have done is to hold off the inevitable crash, likely making it WORSE for us later. All they have done is give more power and control to the very same people at the top of this pyramid who created this mess. All they have done is just pave the way for a great stagflation and demise of our dollar.

    Our dollar is going to tank so badly, and it will never rise again given the direction they're taking us in. The price of goods and oil is going to innevitably rise because of it. The ridiculous amount of money they are going to BORROW and PRINT to carry out this bailout (well over a trillion going by the words of many economists and the typical spending decisions of the government) is going to rock the ship like hell. People around the world in this global economy are waking up to the fact that our money represents no real value. The only reason we haven't been dropped into the hole already is because so many countries depend on us to buy their goods and services, and our crash would mean THEIR crash. What this means is (as I said in the bailout topic) the beginning of a new era where the dollar is no longer the world standard, and many more significant changes along with it that most people aren't going to like. Even Putin has said this for Christ's sake. Even Chavez is dancing around in Venezuela, singing on about how socialist Bush has become, and how far down he's driving the country.
    Here's the problem--we're not completely free market to begin with. The fact that we have taxes means we're somewhat socialistic. The fact that we bail out the people too dumb to support themselves (aka welfare) means that we're putting a floor on things. So at the same time, we can't have a pure free market, because there isn't enough downside to justify it--and worse, we're too connected around the world to let the system go bust.

    And if you know your history, the last time the system went bust, we had a worldwide depression and the Dow didn't recover for 25 years.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    That isn't attitude, Risen. That's reality. America is WAAAAY down on the list in terms of scientists and mathematical aptitude at the k-12 levels.

    We have so many people who don't know shit about economics and finance--the very FOUNDATION of why America is a great nation. We have too many people becoming lawyers and accountants and middle managers, and not enough people actually knowing anything of substance.

    Want me to support democracy more? Revolutionize the educational system so that I am more confident the people going to the polls are voting for the right reasons.
    Yes, I generally agree with you when you're not playing up the name calling. We've got a lot of problems in this country. The education system has really become nothing more than a tool to dumb us all down, and it has been too effective. Too many damn people who just don't want to give the time of day to what matters, to their damn responsibilities in this country to be informed about what's going on and intelligently exercising their power in the political system. That's a big reason why things have gone as far down the beaten path as they have. But I can't just sit here pissed off at everyone because they never bothered to listen to any bit of sense I, or any other informed individual, have had to say. *OUR complacency as Americans has led to the growth of this monstrosity we call government, which has supported the holograms of wealth that our economy is now built on. In reality its all become so large, so entangled, so corrupt, and so out of control that you can't blame everyone for not knowing everything.

    At this stage, putting everything back in the order would require a massive shift in the minds of the average person. After that, it would require something of a bloody revolution to set things back on the rails, because I'm fairly confident the reduction in the size of government and the overhaul to the economic system that would follow would not be met with open arms by the people who have the most influence over the system.

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