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  1. #11
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    I think it is silly to believe that washington can change.

    lobbying would be considered bribing in most democratic countries that are newer than the USA.

    im not sure what the point of believing washington can "change" is.

    the only REAL change would be anarchy. but even that is a pretty remote possibility. but slightly more likely than change by itself. liklihood of change - .0000001% likelihood of anarchy - .0000002% LOL
    So, is this a post saying Obama's message of change is stupid, or that people who believe in Obama's message are dumb?

    Edit: Also, I accept there will always be dirty dealing in Washington. Hell, even our founding fathers were far from saints. It becomes a serious problem, though, when the dirty dealing becomes so rampant that America suffers so a select few can make a quick buck.

  2. #12
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    His political campaigns have been closely associated with Tony Rezko.

    This, alone, wouldn't necessarily keep me from voting for anyone. My problem with it is that the crux of his campaign is 'change', but his previous actions, like his association with Rezko, show me that he's just feeding everyone a line. He's just another politician. What amazes me is how so many people are just dying to gobble it up.
    i think its because people believe America can change. not washington

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    So, is this a post saying Obama's message of change is stupid, or that people who believe in Obama's message are dumb?
    I think he can bring back the bill clinton days of just... dunno. wasn't that time so chill and good? like everything that happened, u just knew it seemed like everything was pretty cool? i mean, as a kid growing up, i never knew the president can have such a big effect on the overall watever it is.

    but changing washington's lobby/bribing culture??? no way man. lol

  4. #14
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    It becomes a serious problem, though, when the dirty dealing becomes so rampant that America suffers so a select few can make a quick buck.
    ah if this is about the bailout/rescue plan.

    this is the way I see it:

    1) Gov't passed easy to buy homes laws. After all, i mean, kind of cool in a way... (remember all those infomercials about flipping properties?? making a quick buck??)
    2) banks were reluctant at first, until they found out they can outsource to shadier subprime loan officers. and then turn around and sell those "risky easy to buy home" loans to these complicated things called CDO/MBS (collateralized debt obligations and mortgage backed securities) that few investors understood. (they were made to be hard to understand). So all that "easy to buy home" risks were hidden in complicated legal language.
    3) so easy to buy home risks, got passed from the people---> banks----> investors---> to everyone back in the form of spreading that risk to all business (because all business is connected to financial institutions)
    4) and now because everything is so connected, the gov't is called on to help set floor on how bad the risk will take the entire economy.

    I think some people need to go to jail for sure. But there really is a lot of blame to go around. Ultimately, the way I see it, those taxes will come from all the property taxes the government collected when so many people saw their property values rise so much bc they were all in on the housing bubble plan.

    There's a few more culprits in regards to "regulation".

    Will credit default swaps cause the next financial crisis? - Sep. 30, 2008

    Thats an excellent article that outlines how this risk was transferred so easily from average homeowner---> banks---> investors...> all businesses that deal with financial institutions. Its worth a read if you are interested in that sort of thing.

  5. #15
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    This, alone, wouldn't necessarily keep me from voting for anyone. My problem with it is that the crux of his campaign is 'change', but his previous actions, like his association with Rezko, show me that he's just feeding everyone a line. He's just another politician. What amazes me is how so many people are just dying to gobble it up.
    The reason is simple... the language he uses to communicate is refreshing. He rarely goes negative, and when he does it's most always about policies and not character attacks. He speaks in a positive language of hope and empowerment instead of fear and threats. America has grown weary of constantly hearing about the sky falling, so it's easy to cling to his message.

    I'm actually not bothered that his plans tend to be about lofty milestones instead of concrete actions to achieve his milestones. However, if your message is going to consist of principles, you better stick to them!

    Obama makes me think of every political movie where the dreamy, idealistic politician goes to Washington only to become the exact thing he wanted to fight against. I can't help but to hope we get to the scene where he realizes what he has become and resolves to ... ahem... change.

  6. #16
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Obama is not the agent for change. He strikes me as extremely cautious and thoughtful. McCain is the Maverick. Obama's line "You're using a hammer where a scalpel is needed" in response to McCain's spend freeze proposition is a good illustration of the difference between the two.
    Just from the first debate, it seems that if you want change in Washington (especially if you want someone to clean the place of corruption), McCain's your man.

  7. #17
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    Obama is not the agent for change.
    Agreed, and he ought to quit making it the cornerstone of his message.

    Maybe I'm missing it, but he doesn't seem to be bragging that almost all his money comes from the people anymore. He's become mainstream, and appears to be taking plenty of money from the corporations now. He used the home-grown movement to propel him past Clinton and into the world where he can play the political game just like everyone else.

    I liked him more when his money came from the people, so he felt accountable to them.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    Obama is not the agent for change. He strikes me as extremely cautious and thoughtful. McCain is the Maverick. Obama's line "You're using a hammer where a scalpel is needed" in response to McCain's spend freeze proposition is a good illustration of the difference between the two. Hell, even the v.p. choices reflect that. Obama's decision was a well thought-out uncontroversial choice to balance his own weaknesses. McCain's was crayzay, period.
    Just from the first debate, it seems that if you want change in Washington (especially if you want someone to clean the place of corruption), McCain's your man.
    Neither is going to bring any change, at least ways not any real lasting changes that benefit most people.

  9. #19
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    One word: FISA. WTF, Obama?

    I respect your ability to rejudge a situation, but this was a betrayal of what you stand for. People wanted change, someone who was going to go for the throat of the bullshit that has gone on for the last 8 years. Hiding behing a marginal improvement to a highly dubious policy still counts as betraying the hope people had in you.

  10. #20
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    ^ yeah really, I can see how someone might see Obama as lesser of two evils and go grudgingly vote for him, but cannot see how people can get all over him after the FISA vote.

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