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  1. #31
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I think there are more single people living alone in cities, so this perception may be accurate in aggregate. But plenty of community minded, family oriented, religious people live in cities too.

    Also, those single people living alone have parents that are often in small-towns or suburbs.

    Really, I think suburbs are more "prototypical America" than small towns. I have to find the stats. but I think suburbs have more people total than rural areas.

    I have nothing against rural America per say. I just don't like the implication that living in rural areas somehow makes one more human, more "real," or more American.
    Of course you don't. It's insulting. Just like the idea that people that live in 'flyover country' are backwards, stupid, and their attitudes and ideals are not representative of 'real Americans' that live in cities.

    There is a cultural divide in this country. I'm not sure what the geographical, political, etc lines are, but it's there and I suspect a your typical rural working class Democrat has a lot more in common with his rural working class Republican brother than he does with an upper class urban Democrat when it comes to attitudes and world views.

    Who is more American? Whose values are better? Who knows? I think both candidates are trying to pull the rural working class voters into the fold and it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

    Personally, I don't see either candidate as being 'like me' . . . well, I suppose Palin is more 'like me' and those I know irl but . . . I guess the way in which I perceive her to reflect small town values is the insular, prejudice, judgmental way and paired with a running mate that is a jerk (witness the dumping of crippled wife) and richer than God (witness the top end of middle class being $5M), meh, not 'like me' so much.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #32
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Once again, I must link a great Reason article. This one is about "the myth of rural virtue."

    Palin's Small-Town Snobbery: Why it's time to bury the myth of rural virtue - Reason Magazine
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Of course you don't. It's insulting. Just like the idea that people that live in 'flyover country' are backwards, stupid, and their attitudes and ideals are not representative of 'real Americans' that live in cities.

    There is a cultural divide in this country. I'm not sure what the geographical, political, etc lines are, but it's there and I suspect a your typical rural working class Democrat has a lot more in common with his rural working class Republican brother than he does with an upper class urban Democrat when it comes to attitudes and world views.

    Who is more American? Whose values are better? Who knows? I think both candidates are trying to pull the rural working class voters into the fold and it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

    Personally, I don't see either candidate as being 'like me' . . . well, I suppose Palin is more 'like me' and those I know irl but . . . I guess the way in which I perceive her to reflect small town values is the insular, prejudice, judgmental way and paired with a running mate that is a jerk (witness the dumping of crippled wife) and richer than God (witness the top end of middle class being $5M), meh, not 'like me' so much.
    I am questioning the "cultural divide" in itself. There are working class people in urban areas, just as there are wealthy people in rural ones.

    We make categories, only when they are useful in describing a difference.

    What difference is this cultural divide trying to define?

    If it is just class, then they are missing a huge chunk of the working class in urban America when drawing the line between rural working class and others.

    If it really is just rural vs. urban, it seems like the grievances are misplaced since it is likely the wealthy ruralites who take advantage of the poor and working-class rural individuals.

    Family farms are getting competition from factory farms. The mom-and-pop stores are loosing to Wall-Mart, not the little Chinese groceries in the cities.

    It seems to me that the lines of "culture" are drawn in turns of rural vs. urban, but that they ought to be drawn in terms of class.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #34
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I am questioning the "cultural divide" in itself. There are working class people in urban areas, just as there are wealthy people in rural ones.

    We make categories, only when they are useful in describing a difference.

    What difference is this cultural divide trying to define?

    If it is just class, then they are missing a huge chunk of the working class in urban America when drawing the line between rural working class and others.

    If it really is just rural vs. urban, it seems like the grievances are misplaced since it is likely the wealthy ruralites who take advantage of the poor and working-class rural individuals.

    Family farms are getting competition from factory farms. The mom-and-pop stores are loosing to Wall-Mart, not the little Chinese groceries in the cities.

    It seems to me that the lines of "culture" are drawn in turns of rural vs. urban, but that they ought to be drawn in terms of class.
    Very probably so.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #35
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I am questioning the "cultural divide" in itself. There are working class people in urban areas, just as there are wealthy people in rural ones.

    We make categories, only when they are useful in describing a difference.

    What difference is this cultural divide trying to define?

    If it is just class, then they are missing a huge chunk of the working class in urban America when drawing the line between rural working class and others.

    If it really is just rural vs. urban, it seems like the grievances are misplaced since it is likely the wealthy ruralites who take advantage of the poor and working-class rural individuals.

    Family farms are getting competition from factory farms. The mom-and-pop stores are loosing to Wall-Mart, not the little Chinese groceries in the cities.

    It seems to me that the lines of "culture" are drawn in turns of rural vs. urban, but that they ought to be drawn in terms of class.

    It is definitely NOT class. Both parties have weird cross-class and cross-cultural supporters. Republicans have Wall Street millionaires, small business owners, Cuban-Americans, Zionist Jewish-Americans, and working-class Southerners and Midwesterners. The Democrats have wealthy urban professionals, poor blacks, middle-class female suburbanites, Rust Belt union workers, and college students. Neither class nor location tell the whole story.

    I also don't have a problem with Wal-Mart, the Chinese, or factory farms. All of those entities work, and work well. They help make us very, very rich as compared to most of the world.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It is definitely NOT class. Both parties have weird cross-class and cross-cultural supporters. Republicans have Wall Street millionaires, small business owners, Cuban-Americans, Zionist Jewish-Americans, and working-class Southerners and Midwesterners. The Democrats have wealthy urban professionals, poor blacks, middle-class female suburbanites, Rust Belt union workers, and college students. Neither class nor location tell the whole story.

    I also don't have a problem with Wal-Mart, the Chinese, or factory farms. All of those entities work, and work well. They help make us very, very rich as compared to most of the world.
    I wasn't implying that there should be class warfare or anything.

    I am at a complete loss on the sense of this "divide."

    It's almost like being placed on Red Team or Blue Team arbitrarily.

    Don't working class Southerners and Midwesterners, Rust Belt union workers, and poor blacks have a lot in common day-to-day issues in this present economic situation?

    Why are some on the opposite side of the "divide?"

    Don't small business owners, middle-class suburbanites, and urban professionals also share a many of the same concerns. These people don't have to struggle from pay-check to pay check, but there is still an eye towards secure their future and their children's future. Still some are on opposite sides of the "divide." Why?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #37
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I wasn't implying that there should be class warfare or anything.

    I am at a complete loss on the sense of this "divide."

    It's almost like being placed on Red Team or Blue Team arbitrarily.

    Don't working class Southerners and Midwesterners, Rust Belt union workers, and poor blacks have a lot in common day-to-day issues in this present economic situation?

    Why are some on the opposite side of the "divide?"

    Don't small business owners, middle-class suburbanites, and urban professionals also share a many of the same concerns. These people don't have to struggle from pay-check to pay check, but there is still an eye towards secure their future and their children's future. Still some are on opposite sides of the "divide." Why?

    They have differing religions, schools, social values, personal interests. . . This is something it took the Left WAY longer to figure out. People don't vote based out of class loyalty, or even out of economic self-interest. They want to elect politicians with whom they identify, and people who believe the things they do. It's displaying your social markers. "Peacock voters," as I call them.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    They have differing religions, schools, social values, personal interests. . . This is something it took the Left WAY longer to figure out. People don't vote based out of class loyalty, or even out of economic self-interest. They want to elect politicians with whom they identify, and people who believe the things they do. It's displaying your social markers. "Peacock voters," as I call them.
    Damn peacock voters. Look at the mess they got us into with G.W. Bush.

    Quite frankly, whoever the next president is going to be will have one of the toughest job in history.

    This election is too important for "peacock voting."

    I am approaching this election like a series of job-interviews. I want neither an ideologue nor a demagogue.

    I want someone who will genuinely and steadfastly do what he believes will be best for this country. I want that person to be competent and lucid enough to believe what is true about what is best for this country. Someone willing to change his mind in light of new information, and willing to make unpopular decisions.

    I don't know enough to have my personal beliefs be what is right for the nation, and I am certainly not going to vote based on someone agreeing with me. That seems petty and foolish in this time of crisis.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #39
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    I don't wanna!

  10. #40
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    I prefer the Obama "NOPE" poster/T-shirt.


    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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