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  1. #21
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    Like I said, "small town values" probably is a euphemism for fundamentalist christianity values.
    I've concluded the term "fundamentalist christian" is mostly used by people on the left to distance themselves from people on the right. Similarly people on the right use terms like "soy-latte drinking elitist" to distance themselves from people on the left.

    Back to the thread topic: I find it ironic that John Mellancamp in a Democrat.

    [youtube=3eDkAG3R0h8]Small Town[/youtube]
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldanen View Post
    It's politics. Do you ever expect them to be straight with you? If they openly said christian values, liberals would get even more angry with them .

    So what? They aren't going to get the liberal vote. Instead they have urban ans suburban indpendents like me hearing a phrase that doesn't sound too good. Huckabee actually warned against this.

    I am not a Christian, but I can understand why it would be appealing for someone to have Christian values.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Everyone believes his values to be best. That's why they're values.
    I don't think this is true. Sometimes people can see values as preferences. There are somethings appropriate for me, and there are other things appropriate for others.

    Our values are our preferences--what we value. I don't believe it follows that we think they are "better" in an objective sense.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Similarly people on the right use terms like "soy-latte drinking elitist" to distance themselves from people on the left.
    As someone who holds many conservative views, phases like this don't really help attract me to the Rpublican party.

    I like soy-lattes once in a while. I went to one of those "elite" schools.

    What the hell does this crap have to do with political views, or what would be the best course for a nation?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #25
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I don't think this is true. Sometimes people can see values as preferences. There are somethings appropriate for me, and there are other things appropriate for others.

    Our values are our preferences--what we value. I don't believe it follows that we think they are "better" in an objective sense.
    ...but you believe this because you value personal liberty. Your egalitarianism and tolerance are values.

    You believe that this perception informs a better way to live, yes? Shouldn't everyone share your tolerance for other points of view?

  6. #26
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I think city people are perceived to be less community minded, less family oriented, less traditional in the way they live, less hardworking, and of course, less religious.

    I do think being family oriented and hardworking are good values. Being traditional can have some value depending. I consider myself religious, so I value that to some degree but there is a lot of nasty baggage that can go along with that, too.

    My own experience with small towns, very small towns like a few thousand people, is that they are, in addition to the good things, insular, prejudice, and judgmental. I do not value those things. Now I've never lived as an adult in a very large city, but in my mid-sized town, it seems to me that it's not as hard to get by if you are in an out group as it is in a small town.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    ...but you believe this because you value personal liberty. Your egalitarianism and tolerance are values.
    This is true, but it still does not remove the very plausible possibility that it is not objectively "best," but simply appropriate for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You believe that this perception informs a better way to live, yes? Shouldn't everyone share your tolerance for other points of view?
    Not necessarily. Tolerance is a luxury for some. For those who have to fight everyday to hold onto the values they want, a a belief in theirs being "best" may aid them in their process.

    It took me a long time to come to the realization that some people don't value the truth above everything else, and that sometimes that is OK. But i still hold seeking the truth to be my highest value.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #28
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    As someone who holds many conservative views, phases like this don't really help attract me to the Rpublican party.

    I like soy-lattes once in a while. I went to one of those "elite" schools.

    What the hell does this crap have to do with political views, or what would be the best course for a nation?
    Heh, as an NT I sympathize. I don't appreciate the rhetoric or the polarizing effect that it has. On the other hand it must be useful in persuading some, otherwise why would they do this? It would be nice if language is occasionally used to appeal to us NT's (i.e. reason), but that is rarely the case.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I think city people are perceived to be less community minded, less family oriented, less traditional in the way they live, less hardworking, and of course, less religious.
    I think there are more single people living alone in cities, so this perception may be accurate in aggregate. But plenty of community minded, family oriented, religious people live in cities too.

    Also, those single people living alone have parents that are often in small-towns or suburbs.

    Really, I think suburbs are more "prototypical America" than small towns. I have to find the stats. but I think suburbs have more people total than rural areas.

    I have nothing against rural America per say. I just don't like the implication that living in rural areas somehow makes one more human, more "real," or more American.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Heh, as an NT I sympathize. I don't appreciate the rhetoric or the polarizing effect that it has. On the other hand it must be useful in persuading some, otherwise why would they do this? It would be nice if language is occasionally used to appeal to us NT's (i.e. reason), but that is rarely the case.
    I didn't really want to bring temperament into this, I don't think is all that relevant.

    I think the "culture war" crap is back-firing in many ways. Does it actually still work? If I were a more emotional suburban voter, I would have already decided to vote Democratic by now. Because, I definitely react badly to the Republican party rhetoric regarding the "culture war."

    As a reaction to the Rhodes scholar Clinton, it may have been effective. But remember we've had "average Joe," George W. Bush, and look how that turned out.

    As John Stewart put way back when he was doing stand-up. "Be better than us."

    I want a candidate who is more intelligent, more articulate, more persevering, better in crisis, and a better leader than I ever could be.

    When we fill any other position important to us, do we look for, "this person is like us," or "this person will do a good job?"

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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