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  1. #81
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcasticus View Post
    That's a pretty big generalization. All "lefties" do this?

    Corporate fascism would be more accurate.

    I don't recall saying anything about free markets. But yes, under Bush in particular there has been a great deal of deregulation heading us towards
    less government oversight. And that has played a role in the current mess we're in.
    Dead wrong. There has NOT been a great deal of deregulation under Bush. The major problem is that he and his cronies have made hack political appointments to important positions at the federal level.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #82
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't remember GWB saying "big government is bad."
    Wasn't that his campaign platform against Kerry (the evil lefty spender!)?

    Anyway, that's beside the point. The 'left' has far more fiscal responsibility than the 'right', in the US, and has for a long time. But neither the left or the right are 'free market', and both are generally exploitive. Fortunately that's the case, IMO, since I'd hate to see a real libertarian take power.

    Mind you, there is a very different attitude outside the US. The US is fairly unique in how it views government, and what the government can do. I mean, on one hand you can't sell universal medicare, even after huge studies of the deadweight loss, lost efficiency, worse care/marginal care, and at the same time, blame those that want it in as thieves and actively campaign against them, despite that their history shows they are vastly more responsible in growing the government.

    Really doesn't make sense - voting against the ones that would spend the money responsibly and on social issues, or... the alternative, which is exactly the opposite. Shouldn't be a tough choice, and yet, there it is.

    (Notably, there is no third choice - reduce government spending. This was more just a comment on how the left is small government, while the right is large government, in the US.)

  3. #83
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Wasn't that his campaign platform against Kerry (the evil lefty spender!)?
    No. They called him a "flip-flopper," attacked his post-service anti-war rhetoric, painted him as an out-of-touch elitist, and harped on 9/11.

    Anyway, that's beside the point. The 'left' has far more fiscal responsibility than the 'right', in the US, and has for a long time. But neither the left or the right are 'free market', and both are generally exploitive. Fortunately that's the case, IMO, since I'd hate to see a real libertarian take power.

    Mind you, there is a very different attitude outside the US. The US is fairly unique in how it views government, and what the government can do. I mean, on one hand you can't sell universal medicare, even after huge studies of the deadweight loss, lost efficiency, worse care/marginal care, and at the same time, blame those that want it in as thieves and actively campaign against them, despite that their history shows they are vastly more responsible in growing the government.

    Really doesn't make sense - voting against the ones that would spend the money responsibly and on social issues, or... the alternative, which is exactly the opposite. Shouldn't be a tough choice, and yet, there it is.

    (Notably, there is no third choice - reduce government spending. This was more just a comment on how the left is small government, while the right is large government, in the US.)

    The left is not small government in the United States by any stretch of the imagination. Where are you getting this stuff?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #84
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Wasn't that his campaign platform against Kerry (the evil lefty spender!)?

    Anyway, that's beside the point. The 'left' has far more fiscal responsibility than the 'right', in the US, and has for a long time. But neither the left or the right are 'free market', and both are generally exploitive. Fortunately that's the case, IMO, since I'd hate to see a real libertarian take power.

    Mind you, there is a very different attitude outside the US. The US is fairly unique in how it views government, and what the government can do. I mean, on one hand you can't sell universal medicare, even after huge studies of the deadweight loss, lost efficiency, worse care/marginal care, and at the same time, blame those that want it in as thieves and actively campaign against them, despite that their history shows they are vastly more responsible in growing the government.

    Really doesn't make sense - voting against the ones that would spend the money responsibly and on social issues, or... the alternative, which is exactly the opposite. Shouldn't be a tough choice, and yet, there it is.

    (Notably, there is no third choice - reduce government spending. This was more just a comment on how the left is small government, while the right is large government, in the US.)
    What? Where do you get that the left is for smaller government? This is actually an impossible ideal, because the left favors an expansion of social programs. Those social programs require administration, which requires larger government.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  5. #85
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    (Notably, there is no third choice - reduce government spending. This was more just a comment on how the left is small government, while the right is large government, in the US.)
    Both parties are for big government.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #86
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Both parties are for big government.
    Seconded. Bush is closer to LBJ and Woodrow Wilson in policy than he is to Goldwater or even to Reagan. That should have been his slogan for the 2004 campaign: "I want the worst of all worlds!"
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #87
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Both parties are for big government.
    Yup. And this is why they both suck. :P
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  8. #88
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    What? Where do you get that the left is for smaller government? This is actually an impossible ideal, because the left favors an expansion of social programs. Those social programs require administration, which requires larger government.
    Statistics > rhetoric, I'm afraid. The right overspends and grows government, and has for the better part of a century.

    It's not an impossible ideal, either. The left simply wants to spend money on social care - in theory, they want to spend it to improve social costing for inefficient areas of the economy. This redistribution doesn't have be any larger or smaller than any other preference of spending.

    The right simply prefers to spend more on whatever it is they prefer (which appears to be military, wars and corporate socialism).

  9. #89
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    No. They called him a "flip-flopper," attacked his post-service anti-war rhetoric, painted him as an out-of-touch elitist, and harped on 9/11.
    I'm pretty sure you will find lots of references to Kerry being "for big government", as said by GWB... granted, that's indirect. Lots of 'wants to empower the government' stuff, as I recall. And the debates framed Kerry as 'big government' every time I watched them, putting GWB as the 'conservative'.

    The left is not small government in the United States by any stretch of the imagination. Where are you getting this stuff?
    The US budget, debt growth, growth of government employees... the usual.

  10. #90
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm pretty sure you will find lots of references to Kerry being "for big government", as said by GWB... granted, that's indirect. Lots of 'wants to empower the government' stuff, as I recall. And the debates framed Kerry as 'big government' every time I watched them, putting GWB as the 'conservative'.
    I can assure you, you're wrong. Bush didn't even ATTEMPT to call his style of governance "conservative" in that election. The only truly conservative thing about him is that he likes to cut taxes. However, as we all know, cutting taxes does nothing to limit the size of the government.

    BTW, just how the hell do debates "frame" as a man as "big government" or "conservative?"


    The US budget, debt growth, growth of government employees... the usual.[/QUOTE]

    Obama, for one, is not a small government man. Neither is Hillary Clinton. Nor Ralph Nader. Exactly which center-left and left politicians and policies are you talking about?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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