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  1. #51
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Who made great economic and power gains? The USSR, or its ruling class? The ordinary people who weren't murdered or sent to Gulags, enjoyed very little of these "great economic and power gains". The USSR used its military might to subdue, conquer and exploit neighbours, while the ruling classes either received special treatment, or bought what they needed on the black market. Everyone else, meanwhile, learned that hard work doesn't pay, an attitude which even persists today, a cultural artifact of the USSR.

    Such incredible waste at the expense of so many others.
    They were terrible when it came to protecting the average person's quality of life. I'm not sure Czar life was much better though.

  2. #52
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    LOL

    i agree... i hope u read what i wrote carefully.

    i like to think of the tension between "socialism" and "capitalism" as an ebb and flow. you have to have ebb and flow to ensure long term survival...
    The Soviets HAD "motivation to care about all the details." The motivations were ideological commitment and fear of being sent to the gulag. They were still unable to make correct decisions because of the price problem. Hell, even under capitalism, no one can always make the right decision. Look at Wall Street circa-now.

    I also think that "ebb and flow" is over. If the 20th Century proved nothing else, it proved that fascism/communism/Nazism/socialism don't work. Command economies just can't hack it long-term.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #53
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    i like to think of the tension between "socialism" and "capitalism" as an ebb and flow. you have to have ebb and flow to ensure long term survival...
    I think most people realize that a mixed market middle ground is the way to go.

  4. #54
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    i can't imagine that, when the director's job is to ensure his department's survival is to overproduce and "look good", that being not accurate with numbers is what sends you to the gulag. i'd imagine its not pleasing the director, who wants to puff themselves up in the war with the usa...

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I also think that "ebb and flow" is over. If the 20th Century proved nothing else, it proved that fascism/communism/Nazism/socialism don't work. Command economies just can't hack it long-term.
    i think the basic tenets of capitalism and socialism have existed for a very long time, more than the past millenium. just not under the labels that adam smith and marx denoted.

    soviet gov't did auction off extra goods with market prices in extreme situations. and us did also ration goods during times of war. you can find examples where one philosophy did not totally dominate every decision the 20th century gov'ts made.

  5. #55
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    i think the basic tenets of capitalism and socialism have existed for a very long time, more than the past millenium. just not under the labels that adam smith and marx denoted.

    soviet gov't did auction off extra goods with market prices in extreme situations. and us did also ration goods during times of war. you can find examples where one philosophy did not totally dominate every decision the 20th century gov'ts made.
    Oh, I am not saying there was no capitalism in the Soviet Union (they had an awesome black market in consumer goods), nor that there is no socialism in the United States, but the argument regarding the two is over, and capitalism kicked socialism's ass. It was like a Globetrotters-Generals game. Capitalism was bouncing the ball off socialism's chest and dunking with ladders and trampolines.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #56
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Oh, I am not saying there was no capitalism in the Soviet Union (they had an awesome black market in consumer goods), nor that there is no socialism in the United States, but the argument regarding the two is over, and capitalism kicked socialism's ass. It was like a Globetrotters-Generals game. Capitalism was bouncing the ball off socialism's chest and dunking with ladders and trampolines.
    Ever since the 30's, we've been slowly leaning closer and closer to socialism, or "liberalism" I should say.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Oh, I am not saying there was no capitalism in the Soviet Union (they had an awesome black market in consumer goods), nor that there is no socialism in the United States, but the argument regarding the two is over, and capitalism kicked socialism's ass. It was like a Globetrotters-Generals game. Capitalism was bouncing the ball off socialism's chest and dunking with ladders and trampolines.
    More hearty LOLs.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Ever since the 30's, we've been slowly leaning closer and closer to socialism, or "liberalism" I should say.
    No, I think you have it right at "socialism". And many of the economic conservatives (including myself) are not convinced that this is a good thing.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  9. #59
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    No, I think you have it right at "socialism". And many of the economic conservatives (including myself) are not convinced that this is a good thing.
    The nation's multi-millionaires agree with you. Or actually, I think liberals have higher incomes than conservatives.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    The nation's multi-millionaires agree with you. Or actually, I think liberals have higher incomes than conservatives.
    I'm not wealthy, yet I'm fiscally conservative as well. I estimate that the average standard of living, even for the less-well-to-do, is lower under socialism. Look around the world.

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