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  1. #41
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #42
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    The Soviet Union was great at overestimating (lying) about its production. Heads of industry would have quotas for production. Let's say you were in control of the bolt industry and you were graded based on how many tons of bolts you produced. After a while, you realize that instead of making all different sizes of bolts, you could more easily meet your quota if just made gigantic bolts. Of course, those bolts are useless, but that was better than being sent to the Gulag. Scenarios like this actually existed.

    Also, the Soviets would count resources several times over. They'd count the steel, they'd count the steel again after it was cut into sheets, then they'd count it again in the finished product.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #43
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    That first link was interesting, though it did posit that the overestimate could be offset by errors in ruble estimation.

    I think we can all agree that under Central Planning, the USSR made great economic and power gains, where, despite their natural resources and labor force, they weren't able to make before.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    That first link was interesting, though it did posit that the overestimate could be offset by errors in ruble estimation.

    I think we can all agree that under Central Planning, the USSR made great economic and power gains, where, despite their natural resources and labor force, they weren't able to make before.
    No, we don't all agree. They may have improved certain industries, but they did so at the expense of other segments of the economy. They were HORRIBLY inefficient.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #45
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    That first link was interesting, though it did posit that the overestimate could be offset by errors in ruble estimation.
    It had nothing to do with rubles vs. dollars. The so-called "experts" here simply believed the Soviets were bigger and mightier than they were.

    I think we can all agree that under Central Planning, the USSR made great economic and power gains, where, despite their natural resources and labor force, they weren't able to make before.
    Under the czarist system, it was bad. Under the Soviets, it was bad. If they had been able to pursue liberal democracy and free trade, they would have been far better off. I really don't give the Soviet Union much credit for what they did economically. Large-scale capital goods and military weaponry may wow the economically tone-deaf, but domestic demand and the ability of capital and labor to move efficiently are what make an economy go. I will continue to disagree with you, because the evidence points to your assertion being inaccurate in many ways.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #46
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No, we don't all agree. They may have improved certain industries, but they did so at the expense of other segments of the economy. They were HORRIBLY inefficient.
    What? Overall, we all know they progressed economically, no one disputes that.

    Do you know how big their economy and world influence was pre-USSR?

  7. #47
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I think we can all agree that under Central Planning, the USSR made great economic and power gains, where, despite their natural resources and labor force, they weren't able to make before.
    Who made great economic and power gains? The USSR, or its ruling class? The ordinary people who weren't murdered or sent to Gulags, enjoyed very little of these "great economic and power gains". The USSR used its military might to subdue, conquer and exploit neighbours, while the ruling classes either received special treatment, or bought what they needed on the black market. Everyone else, meanwhile, learned that hard work doesn't pay, an attitude which even persists today, a cultural artifact of the USSR.

    Such incredible waste at the expense of so many others.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  8. #48
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Central planned economies work up to the point of where details become more and more important. Then u need all the people to have motivation to care about the details.

    im more likely to argue that it was the soviet philosophy and culture that led to its rise as a real challenger to usa. not necessarily central planning all by itself.

    for the strangest reason, i've gotten along pretty well with every russian person i met. i don't know why...

    i think its good to have competing philosphies under a democracy though, then like locke said, you do lock yourself into a social contract by whereforth you know the rules...

  9. #49
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    Central planned economies work up to the point of where details become more and more important. Then u need all the people to have motivation to care about the details.

    History has proven this false. Command economies are fatally flawed because there is no way ever to have enough information to set production levels. When you leave out the element of prices, you are unable to have the information needed on the supply side of the economy.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #50
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    History has proven this false. Command economies are fatally flawed because there is no way ever to have enough information to set production levels. When you leave out the element of prices, you are unable to have the information needed on the supply side of the economy.

    LOL

    i agree... i hope u read what i wrote carefully.

    i like to think of the tension between "socialism" and "capitalism" as an ebb and flow. you have to have ebb and flow to ensure long term survival...

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