User Tag List

First 31112131415 Last

Results 121 to 130 of 159

  1. #121
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    Hmmmm. Not too surprising to hear about Fundy Libertarians.
    It should be. The majority of libertarians I've met are either agnostics (like myself) or committed atheists. Perhaps you haven't spent much time talking to libertarians?


    Would you go so far as to say that a believer in a "flat earth" would not cause you any concern, and should be looked at as only one category among many in evaluating a candidate ?
    I'd consider that person completely stupid, but if they were for cutting taxes and spending, balancing the budget, restoring civil rights, and getting out of Iraq, I'd vote for him/her in a heartbeat. Some of our greatest Founding Fathers in this country were idiots, religious wackjobs, or just plain weirdos.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #122
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6?
    Posts
    2,191

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Then you seem to have a problem with people having overarching values systems, or their having overarching values systems which conflict with yours. Again, you can look at the individual POLICIES (about abortion or taxes or gay marriage, anything at all) without indicting someone for his or her belief system. Sarah Palin's believing that human beings coexisted with dinosaurs has absolutely no bearing on me whatsoever. Her policy initiatives could, and I base my lack of support on her for those. Saying that, because someone is a fundamentalist, she makes poor decisions is pretty fundamentalist on your part. I know a few fundamentalist Christians who are libertarians or liberals (at least when it comes to "social justice" concerns).
    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Unfortunately, what a person believes about Jesus etc certainly does affect what they believe politically as well. It just so happens that people who deny evolution also tend to have problematic beliefs about the right to choose and a whole slew of other issues. That Sarah Palin denies this wouldn't necessarily be a problem if this one belief occurred in isolation from other beliefs that affect people's bodies, livelihoods, and the like... but it doesn't. I don't think she should be judged based on this one belief, but if you look closer at it, it is part of a larger system of fundamentalist views.

    "Fundamentalist" is a pretty specific term that describes a religious position. That I am intolerant of fundamentalism makes me intolerant, not fundamentalist. And I'm not necessarily intolerant of fundamentalism, unless it potentially infringes on rights through court appointments or legislation. People can believe whatever they want, but you are damn right that if A. it's different from what I believe and B. potentially limits somebody's rights, I have a problem with it. If it is only different from what I believe, then I can just live and let live... which is why I can deal with the dinosaur thing by itself (but not with the anti-abortion or anti-gay rights things).

    And sure, I could criticize her policies--and do--without regard for her value system. However, that there are exceptions to the rule doesn't mean that there aren't some real, observable tendencies among most Christian fundamentalists that can affect policies.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  3. #123
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INfp
    Enneagram
    9w1 sp/sx
    Socionics
    INFp None
    Posts
    5,295

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    As do I, but her opinions on the matter are A) non-expert; and B) irrelevant to whether or not she would make a good or bad executive. Willful ignorance of scientific opinion isn't a good quality, but it's small potatoes compared to ignorance of the Constitution or ignorance of foreign policy.
    In this case, it's are mostly irrelevant, I agree. I would need to know if her willful ignorance only pertains to this religious aspect, though, or if this would extend to other areas that could be relevant. That's the red flag that I raise.

    Education, in particular, would worry me. Who needs to teach our children science when we have the Bible?

  4. #124
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    What a person believes politically is far more important than what they believe about Jesus or Buddha or Allah or whatever.
    I guess that depends on her stance of rapture and the end of the world, I suppose... or, the whole Islam-Christian thing, at the present... Religious beliefs have more influence than political beliefs when guiding an individuals actions.

    It's one reason why I tend to side with Libertarians - I tend to agree with their moral fibre more than the others, simply due to them being the most dominantly non-religious. I disagree on a lot with them on the political topics, but rarely at a personal level. I have no common ground with 'libertarian YEC'.

  5. #125
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    "Fundamentalist" is a pretty specific term that describes a religious position. That I am intolerant of fundamentalism makes me intolerant, not fundamentalist.
    Actually, it does. Fundamentalism is not specific to relgiosity. I've been called a "market fundamentalist" before, in regards to my libertarianism. If you have a problem with Christian Fundamentalism per se, that would be a fundamentalist position.


    And I'm not necessarily intolerant of fundamentalism, unless it potentially infringes on rights through court appointments or legislation. People can believe whatever they want, but you are damn right that if A. it's different from what I believe and B. potentially limits somebody's rights, I have a problem with it. If it is only different from what I believe, then I can just live and let live... which is why I can deal with the dinosaur thing by itself (but not with the anti-abortion or anti-gay rights things).

    And sure, I could criticize her policies--and do--without regard for her value system. However, that there are exceptions to the rule doesn't mean that there aren't some real, observable tendencies among most Christian fundamentalists that can affect policies.
    That is reasonable, but you can't paint everyone with the same brush. Obama wants to limit our rights in many ways, as well, but I don't assign his reasoning automatically to the fact that he is a Democrat (or black, or a Christian, or from Illinois). You can make SOME educated guesses to what a Democrat believes, but you have to take people at an individual level in order to judge them fairly. There are Democrats who believe the most outlandish things imaginable about economics, the environment, all sorts of things. I am not going to say "Obama is a dope by definition, since he's a Democrat." I'll say he is a dope based on observing him speak and looking at his record.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #126
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    In this case, it's are mostly irrelevant, I agree. I would need to know if her willful ignorance only pertains to this religious aspect, though, or if this would extend to other areas that could be relevant. That's the red flag that I raise.

    Education, in particular, would worry me. Who needs to teach our children science when we have the Bible?
    True, but public schools in our country range from pretty good to awful. I would not blame most parents for wanting to homeschool or send their kids to private school. I was lucky; after 9 years of crappy parochial Catholic schooling, I earned a full academic scholarship to a very expensive private school.

    Also, Palin sends her kids to public schools, doesn't she? I know Bristol Palin went to one, because it became a big deal about whether or not she received "comprehensive" sex education (she did).
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #127
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    XNXP
    Posts
    1,065

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It should be. The majority of libertarians I've met are either agnostics (like myself) or committed atheists. Perhaps you haven't spent much time talking to libertarians?
    I have a Libertarian friend, also a member of MENSA, that I hang around with often. He is an atheist/agnostic. Other than him, I mostly encounter them here. I have entertained it as a stance for myself at times, as well. I was alluding to the fact that there are some real extremists amongst the Libertarians, which IIRC was something that you were bemoaning also the other day.

    My friend will be voting for Obama vs. Bob Barr, partly to focus on getting us out of Iraq. I guess you'll be doing the "protest vote" thing, which I flubbed around with back during Perot's run.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I'd consider that person completely stupid, but if they were for cutting taxes and spending, balancing the budget, restoring civil rights, and getting out of Iraq, I'd vote for him/her in a heartbeat. Some of our greatest Founding Fathers in this country were idiots, religious wackjobs, or just plain weirdos.
    The world was not such an interconnected place back in the days of the founding fathers and people did not have their fingers on nuclear codes. "Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die." Some people are the first world equivalent of third world "martyrs to the cause" with very different priorities than myself. I've heard that these fundies have even become a problem on the battle field itself in Iraq, trusting to God being on their side versus agreed upon fallback measures and detailed battle plans prepared in advance; which is not always so great for guys who don't share their certitude.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  8. #128
    Senior Member ZiL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    567?
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    " A. it's different from what I believe and B. potentially limits somebody's rights, I have a problem with it. If it is only different from what I believe, then I can just live and let live...

    However, that there are exceptions to the rule doesn't mean that there aren't some real, observable tendencies among most Christian fundamentalists that can affect policies.
    Exactly. It very well could be that Sarah Palin is the types of person who can believe in scientifically-refuted things, yet make good policy decisions. But I find that a person's principles usually form a blueprint for all patterns of their behavior. If they act one way towards one thing (continued belief in disproven theories), it's not some heinous extrapolation that they would act the same way towards another (closed-minded towards experts in policy who do not share the same principles). If it were the norm to isolate each strand of an individual's social behavior as entirely discrete entities, then these stereotypes about Fundamentalists being closed-minded and dictatorial towards others beliefs probably wouldn't exist. In fact generalizations - whether right or wrong - about people wouldn't be able to exist period.... And we know that's kind of impossible.

    I dunno, I'm a big Ne freak so it's nigh on impossible for me to not extrapolate one thing from another (and I'm right about my extrapolations when it comes to analyzing people. Often.).

    Again, she could be a perfectly fine policy-maker, and if I see more proof of that as this campaign continues, I'll be glad to admit it regardless of her beliefs. I just want to make sure that the beliefs that she holds that do not correspond with the majority beliefs of the populace she is to be representing (Americans), do not somehow work their way into her governance and cause the rest of us trouble.

  9. #129
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ZiL View Post
    Exactly. It very well could be that Sarah Palin is the types of person who can believe in scientifically-refuted things, yet make good policy decisions. But I find that a person's principles usually form a blueprint for all patterns of their behavior. If they act one way towards one thing (continued belief in disproven theories), it's not some heinous extrapolation that they would act the same way towards another (closed-minded towards experts in policy who do not share the same principles). If it were the norm to isolate each strand of an individual's social behavior as entirely discrete entities, then these stereotypes about Fundamentalists being closed-minded and dictatorial towards others beliefs probably wouldn't exist. In fact generalizations - whether right or wrong - about people wouldn't be able to exist period.... And we know that's kind of impossible.

    I dunno, I'm a big Ne freak so it's nigh on impossible for me to not extrapolate one thing from another (and I'm right about my extrapolations when it comes to analyzing people. Often.).

    Again, she could be a perfectly fine policy-maker, and if I see more proof of that as this campaign continues, I'll be glad to admit it regardless of her beliefs. I just want to make sure that the beliefs that she holds that do not correspond with the majority beliefs of the populace she is to be representing (Americans), do not somehow work their way into her governance and cause the rest of us trouble.

    A little extrapolation can be a dangerous thing. I am CERTAIN that any extrapolations regarding me (for instance) based on my posts in the Politics, History, and Current Events thread would be inaccurate.

    Also, her beliefs coincide with a HUGE percentage of Americans. More than you'd probably think.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #130
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    type
    Posts
    9,100

    Default

    The principle reasons behind my Palin affection are that she's intelligent and considerate. Whatever her personal beliefs or previous world knowledge, she doesn't seem likely to actually take hasty, ill-advised actions.

Similar Threads

  1. 10/7 Obama vs. McCain debate thread.
    By ajblaise in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 71
    Last Post: 10-08-2008, 11:06 PM
  2. Friday/Saturday Nights @ MBTIc
    By Noel in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 12-08-2007, 02:07 AM
  3. Debating styles
    By labyrinthine in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 08-11-2007, 08:10 PM
  4. Friday Funnies
    By rivercrow in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-28-2007, 05:33 PM
  5. Ron Paul Wins Another Presidential Debate
    By FranG in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 05-18-2007, 12:31 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO