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  1. #21
    brush off the lolcows asynartetic's Avatar
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    EDITED.

    no longer consider myself anti-feminist. I am a feminist man and I see nothing mutually exclusive about the concepts of strength and feminism.
    Last edited by asynartetic; 01-05-2017 at 10:45 AM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    By your definition, I would not consider myself feminist, nor would the many feminists I know. Just goes to illustrate how important it is to define terms, especially when there is considerable variation in definitions.


    Until artificial barriers and influences based on gender are eliminated, we cannot have a situation in which one's outcome is a direct result of one's own abilities, interests, and effort. That is the whole point.
    Sounds like you meet my definition of a feminist after all.

  3. #23
    brush off the lolcows asynartetic's Avatar
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    Where is @EcK? I always enjoy seeing him join these discussions.

  4. #24
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    Where is @EcK? I always enjoy seeing him join these discussions.
    I'm here.
    Bit busy at the moment.
    I didn't read the OP so I'm just going to vaguely give you a stream-of-consciousness type post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    It's quite astonishing, for a while every gender discussion here devolved into garbage, but lately people are actually *gasp* having rational, calm discussions, for the most part..

    Sorry, it just pleases the 9 in me.


    Well I'm all for rational discussions too, but it's difficult to make people see through their biases without using moral language. So sadly rational thinkers need to speak like demagogues to convince.

    Which in turn makes you wonder what amount of hateful people / well-meaning fools / other are actually doing the same thing.

    Ultimately people who are convinced that the world is against them should look for the common denominator - ie: themselves - and start doing some soul searching to see whether or not they might be the problem. But of course that gains a whole new dimension when you turn thought policing and other such devices into a mass movement.

    People forge history to suit their needs, and that includes groups like feminists. They forget that many of their icons weren't even 'feminists', that many of their 'achievements' weren't theirs. 3rd wave feminism achieved, on the whole, nothing and has more to do with attempts from the now defunct soviet union at social engineering their enemies than with a fight for equality.

    Now of course it sounds good so lots of well meaning fools will join in.. but that doesn't make their claims factual.
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  5. #25
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    As an ace woman in my 30s in STEM who lifts heavy and wouldn't ask anyone to do anything for me: I'm by definition a "feminist" because I'm in an Asian country where the expectation is that I get married, have kids and let my husband/family make decisions for me. Except kids, school, laundry and cooking. I'm supposed to take care of that.

    I don't really use labels. As there are these stupid expectations on the kind of life that I'm supposed to lead, there are also stupid expectations on the kind of life that men are supposed to lead. People should make their own lives. At the same time, I also recognise that some people need these expectations to decide what is "normal" and to define the parameters of their lives.

    So the conclusion that I have is that these historical expectations exist to fill a need in some; not everyone is gonna fit in those expectations so there must be freedom to define your life outside of them; people should not face social consequences for making the choice to be different.

    The feminist movement is necessary to break down the social consequences for choosing to be different. A men's right's movement is also necessary to do the same thing. With regards to the Tumblr-type activists, I don't even know what they are. Going in, it's a morass of incoherent ideology and hypocrisy with little ability to communicate basic ideas.
    To be fair, in a lot of Asian cultures, the wife traditionally looks after the house hold finances. It's certainly that way in Japan. Strangely, though, the idea still has its roots in misogyny handling money was considered a base chore - cooking, cleaning and the like. Men were supposed to persue more important matters.
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  6. #26
    one way trip Abendrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    As an ace woman in my 30s in STEM who lifts heavy and wouldn't ask anyone to do anything for me: I'm by definition a "feminist" because I'm in an Asian country where the expectation is that I get married, have kids and let my husband/family make decisions for me. Except kids, school, laundry and cooking. I'm supposed to take care of that.
    I can understand how you would think this if you live in an Asian country, as second wave feminism has not fully run its course there.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    So the conclusion that I have is that these historical expectations exist to fill a need in some; not everyone is gonna fit in those expectations so there must be freedom to define your life outside of them; people should not face social consequences for making the choice to be different.
    I agree with your statement, at least in principle. I respect people who live in accordance with their own values (as long as those values are reasonably tasteful). In Western countries, the former half of your statement also needs to be emphasized: that it is important for gender expectations to exist. There needs to be a balance between societal expectations and individual freedoms.

    What is troubling is a theory that points to the rarity of societies in history with relaxed gender roles, implying that they do not have long-term feasibility, and that relaxed gender expectations are the cause of the recent decline in birth rates and damage to the nuclear family.
    The former implication regarding birth rates is unlikely, given that developed East Asian countries today have some of the lowest birth rates in the world, despite their conservatism in matters of gender roles. Still, I cannot dismiss the latter implication.

    On a side note, I believe that the most likely explanation for low birth rates in the first world is an evolutionary mechanism triggered by the twin factors of overpopulation and low mortality caused by urbanization and industrialization respectively. A parallel of this effect among animals was observed in the Calhoun mouse experiments, in which a colony of mice stopped reproducing and suffered a breakdown of social structure when provided with limited space, an abundance of food, and a lack of predation.

    If this is the true cause of the problems of the first world, I can hardly imagine a more intractable problem.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    To be fair, in a lot of Asian cultures, the wife traditionally looks after the house hold finances. It's certainly that way in Japan. Strangely, though, the idea still has its roots in misogyny handling money was considered a base chore - cooking, cleaning and the like. Men were supposed to persue more important matters.
    Yep it's that way in Japan and Korea.. not so much in China and South East Asia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abendrot View Post
    I can understand how you would think this if you live in an Asian country, as second wave feminism has not fully run its course there.
    *shrugs* I don't think Western ideas about feminism are really imported to Asia. For e.g. in some ways women in China are quite equal to men in the workplace - "Chinese feminism" was driven by the communist revolution, where the idea that women also needed to serve the economic needs of the state pretty much made people take it for granted that men and women are professionally equal. In the family though, the "traditional" expectations still exist. Guys make the big decisions and "represent" and play the disciplinarian, women take care of the "household" and kids and relationships with relatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abendrot View Post
    I agree with your statement, at least in principle. I respect people who live in accordance with their own values (as long as those values are reasonably tasteful). In Western countries, the former half of your statement also needs to be emphasized: that it is important for gender expectations to exist. There needs to be a balance between societal expectations and individual freedoms.

    What is troubling is a theory that points to the rarity of societies in history with relaxed gender roles, implying that they do not have long-term feasibility, and that relaxed gender expectations are the cause of the recent decline in birth rates and damage to the nuclear family.
    The former implication regarding birth rates is unlikely, given that developed East Asian countries today have some of the lowest birth rates in the world, despite their conservatism in matters of gender roles. Still, I cannot dismiss the latter implication.

    On a side note, I believe that the most likely explanation for low birth rates in the first world is an evolutionary mechanism triggered by the twin factors of overpopulation and low mortality caused by urbanization and industrialization respectively. A parallel of this effect among animals was observed in the Calhoun mouse experiments, in which a colony of mice stopped reproducing and suffered a breakdown of social structure when provided with limited space, an abundance of food, and a lack of predation.
    *shrugs* I don't know if the expectations are important for society as a whole, because I'm not sure what proportion of people need them. But I recognise that historically they have served a purpose.

    The ancient greeks had relaxed gender/sexual roles, and there are many, many countries with a "3rd gender" for people who don't identify with any defined role. This includes India, which also has a high birth rate.

    There is a strong link between female education and decreasing birth rate. With higher levels of education there's better knowledge of/access to birth control, better healthcare, lower infant mortality and concentration of resources among fewer children. It's quite well-known. Speakers Link Higher Education among Girls to Declining Fertility Rates as Commission on Population and Development Continues Session | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases Would make sense that countries that give women access to higher education are also countries that are progressive about gender roles.
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  8. #28
    one way trip Abendrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    *shrugs* I don't know if the expectations are important for society as a whole, because I'm not sure what proportion of people need them. But I recognise that historically they have served a purpose.

    The ancient greeks had relaxed gender/sexual roles, and there are many, many countries with a "3rd gender" for people who don't identify with any defined role. This includes India, which also has a high birth rate.

    There is a strong link between female education and decreasing birth rate. With higher levels of education there's better knowledge of/access to birth control, better healthcare, lower infant mortality and concentration of resources among fewer children. It's quite well-known. Speakers Link Higher Education among Girls to Declining Fertility Rates as Commission on Population and Development Continues Session | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases Would make sense that countries that give women access to higher education are also countries that are progressive about gender roles.
    Interesting, I haven't heard about the Hijra of India. About the Ancient Greeks, to my knowledge they were generally quite patriarchal and rigid in their gender roles, but a lot depends the exact city and time period you are talking about. The Ancient Greeks were very audacious and fragmented in their philosophy and political thought, so it is not surprising.

    I have no doubt that female education is one of the factors that predict birth rate, but it is closely tied to a lot of factors, such as industrialization, women in the workforce, and as you said, relaxation of gender roles. Do you know if it is the best predictor? I'll have to try and find research that compares different predictors of birth rate. Perhaps this is the dominant factor for developing countries, but I don't think access to contraceptives is the main cause of low birth rates in the first world. Either way, neither presents an acceptable solution for increasing declining birth rates.

  9. #29
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abendrot View Post
    Interesting, I haven't heard about the Hijra of India. About the Ancient Greeks, to my knowledge they were generally quite patriarchal and rigid in their gender roles, but a lot depends the exact city and time period you are talking about. The Ancient Greeks were very audacious and fragmented in their philosophy and political thought, so it is not surprising.
    I was under the impression that ancient Greece was extremely sexist, to the extent that even husbands and wives would not sleep in the same room or eat at the same table.
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  10. #30
    one way trip Abendrot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    I was under the impression that ancient Greece was extremely sexist, to the extent that even husbands and wives would not sleep in the same room or eat at the same table.
    Yes, this was true at least in the mythical Sparta: Men could marry at 20, but could not live with their wives until 30. Although their society was very rigidly divided by gender, in some ways they were quite egalitarian: Boys and girls received the same education, and trained together in the nude (although women were trained strictly for child bearing, not to be soldiers). Women also owned something like a third of the property in Sparta.

    The Ancient Greeks in general were a LOT of things, but Sparta trumps them all as one of the most alien societies to ever come into being. To illustrate, all Spartan men had to serve at least 10 years in the military, the Spartans did no work and lived off the produce of slaves called helots which they periodically murdered en masse to keep subservient, no one owned gold and silver, and no one was allowed to display emotions that did not profit the state etc.

    It was probably as close as you can get to an actual realization of Plato's "utopia".

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