User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 79

  1. #1
    Senior Member Babybop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    MBTI
    beep
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    960

    Default "Freeform" feminism

    Lately, I have been noticing something about the current feminist movement that is different from the first 2-3 waves.

    This wave, in my opinion, sort of takes a step back and says, "okay, now that we have achieved political/economic equality, where do we go from here? What do we want?"
    And it has turned out that most women want choices, and to be free of judgment for their choices. Some want to get married and have kids. Others want to become successful technicians, doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc. Most want something in between, but what I think the vast majority of us can agree on is that we want to stop being stereotyped and/or looked down upon because of our personal choices.

    I'll use myself as an example. I'm not working right now (although I am going to school), and I spend about 40% of my time with my significant other. Some people might see this and think, "she is setting us back." I actually felt pretty insecure about it for a while. But honestly, I am not hurting feminism in any way. It is so common now for women to work and/or be single that those things have sort of lost their connection to feminism. I am simply enjoying life.

    I think a fourth wave is emerging: one that doesn't focus on what women should or shouldn't do, but on choices and acceptance. If a woman wants to simply be a wife and mother, let her. If she wants to prioritize her career, let her. If she feels better being single than being in a relationship, that's perfectly fine. As long as we all respect each other's choices, I don't see a problem with that philosophy.

    Of course, I think this is easily confused with anti-feminism, and the concept of "I want to prioritize my family because that's what women are supposed to do." The difference seems small, but it is extremely significant. Who are any of us to tell other women what they are supposed to do?

    Regardless of how you feel about feminism, do you think that this new approach is progress for women, or is it actually setting us back?
    Previous username: EliaBlack
    Likes Typh0n, Yuu, jcloudz, MDP2525, Dreamer and 2 others liked this post

  2. #2
    Sheep pill, broster asynartetic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    10,064

    Default

    Progress.

    No one can "have it all" without sacrificing in one area--in which case they're not really having it all.

    And no one should be shat on for not wanting to have it all but rather focusing more on either domestic or career success over success in other areas of life.

    Unfortunately we haven't evolved to post scarcity Star Trek world in which it is easier to have fulfillment in multiple areas (domestic, career, personal)

  3. #3
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    That mostly sounds to me like how the third wave was already supposed to be different from the second wave, actually. And it sounds like a particularly pronounced form of what is often called libertarian feminism.

    My problem with this strain of feminism comes in two forms. One, if it's taken to its maximum extent, it starts to run into a self-defeating wall where the demands of supporting women in their choices no matter what would logically include supporting a woman who chooses to undermine womens' status in society, someone like Phyllis Schlafly. So we have to ask ourselves if supporting every single woman can be extended even to choices that threaten feminism. I would say no.

    The second point is that this kind of thinking is just really bad for making a movement that can accomplish anything. "Do whatever you want" and "support people in doing whatever they want" are not positions that tend to lead to socio-political reforms. So no matter how well intentioned it is, it can end up being so ineffectual as to cease achieving any further progress, or even ceding ground to anti-feminists, thus amounting to giving up on feminism altogether. At worst, if your feminism is that ineffectual and you try to push that approach to feminism onto other feminists, it could be argued that you are trying to spread an ineffectual approach in a way that is tantamount to sabotage.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right
    Likes Babybop, jcloudz, Thalassa, Raffaella liked this post

  4. #4
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    3,090

    Default

    Libertarian feminism is best feminism.
    Likes Tellenbach liked this post

  5. #5
    Sheep pill, broster asynartetic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    10,064

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Libertarian feminism is best feminism.
    They're not "real" feminists. CH Sommers and Paglia are operatives working for the patriarchy and smoking man from the X Files. edit: they're apostates from the church.
    Likes Typh0n, jcloudz liked this post

  6. #6
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    3,090

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anaximander View Post
    They're not "real" feminists. CH Sommers and Paglia are operatives working for the patriarchy and smoking man from the X Files.
    LOL

  7. #7
    Senior Member Babybop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    MBTI
    beep
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    960

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That mostly sounds to me like how the third wave was already supposed to be different from the second wave, actually. And it sounds like a particularly pronounced form of what is often called libertarian feminism.

    My problem with this strain of feminism comes in two forms. One, if it's taken to its maximum extent, it starts to run into a self-defeating wall where the demands of supporting women in their choices no matter what would logically include supporting a woman who chooses to undermine womens' status in society, someone like Phyllis Schlafly. So we have to ask ourselves if supporting every single woman can be extended even to choices that threaten feminism. I would say no.

    The second point is that this kind of thinking is just really bad for making a movement that can accomplish anything. "Do whatever you want" and "support people in doing whatever they want" are not positions that tend to lead to socio-political reforms. So no matter how well intentioned it is, it can end up being so ineffectual as to cease achieving any further progress, or even ceding ground to anti-feminists, thus amounting to giving up on feminism altogether. At worst, if your feminism is that ineffectual and you try to push that approach to feminism onto other feminists, it could be argued that you are trying to spread an ineffectual approach in a way that is tantamount to sabotage.
    That's exactly how I feel about it. I hate seeing "feminist" sites and blogs defend women who have literally said that women should be submissive, not lead, etc. and labels it as their "choice." At that point, it is not a choice; it is an outdated stereotype that they are continuing to spread.

    Still, I think modern feminism is much more complex than it once was. At one point, the ultimate goal of the movement was to break women out of a mold that many of them just didn't fit. Now that we have equal rights and equal pay (no matter how many uninformed people deny it), it seems that feminism is going in several different directions. There are the non-body-hair-shaving feminists, the "slutwalk" feminists, the super pro-choice feminists, the "woman power" feminists, the "breaking the glass ceiling" feminists, and even those "the female spirit is sacred" feminists. The only common goal we all really have is to be able to make our own choices without being expected to do something else.
    Previous username: EliaBlack

  8. #8
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EliaBlack View Post
    That's exactly how I feel about it. I hate seeing "feminist" sites and blogs defend women who have literally said that women should be submissive, not lead, etc. and labels it as their "choice." At that point, it is not a choice; it is an outdated stereotype that they are continuing to spread.

    Still, I think modern feminism is much more complex than it once was. At one point, the ultimate goal of the movement was to break women out of a mold that many of them just didn't fit. Now that we have equal rights and equal pay (no matter how many uninformed people deny it), it seems that feminism is going in several different directions. There are the non-body-hair-shaving feminists, the "slutwalk" feminists, the super pro-choice feminists, the "woman power" feminists, the "breaking the glass ceiling" feminists, and even those "the female spirit is sacred" feminists. The only common goal we all really have is to be able to make our own choices without being expected to do something else.
    First, I think it should be said that feminism has really always been eclectic and fragmented to some extent. It was in the 1960s. It was in the 1910s. Whatever feminism has accomplished, it has managed to do it in spite of being so eclectic.

    That being said, there's at least something to your point when it comes to dilution of the movement. I've read research showing that a rather large number of women will accept the label feminist, and that their acceptance of the label has almost no predicative power in terms of what their socio-political views are (the term actually does have predictive power for men, but much fewer men accept the term so that probably just indicates a much higher bar for acceptance). Tellingly, it was also found that middle-aged and elderly women showed the same pattern, fewer identified as feminist, and the term feminist actually indicate something about their views. This does raise the prospect that feminism might not mean anything anymore, or not qualify as a coherent movement. This poses a challenge to those who do want a feminist movement. They have to find a way to center back onto a purpose and around some kind of organization, which will almost certainly alienate some people that call themselves feminists.

    Which takes us back to the freeform feminism thing. Just because feminism has diluted doesn't mean it would be a good idea to embrace that dilution as an ideology tenet. I return to my worries about its inability to be an actual movement if it tries to embrace such a lack of common purpose. I might make an analogy to anarchists, minarchists, libertarians, and all of that. There are presumably many people who subscribe to these kinds of ideologies in the world. They all, in some sense or another, want to achieve a certain ideal of individual freedom and independence. So how's that working out for them? The problem is that being a bunch of people living by the anarchist philosophy doesn't really lead to an organized movement that can spread anarchy. The irony is that I think to achieve such a society they'd have to take on the current one in an extremely non-anarchist way, something stratified, centralized, mechanized.

    I'm saying the same problem presents itself for feminists. If they approach the movement with a "do whatever you want" philosophy, it could actually backslide so much as to result in women being less free to do what they want.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right
    Likes Babybop, Thalassa liked this post

  9. #9
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,547

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EliaBlack View Post
    Lately, I have been noticing something about the current feminist movement that is different from the first 2-3 waves.

    This wave, in my opinion, sort of takes a step back and says, "okay, now that we have achieved political/economic equality, where do we go from here? What do we want?"
    And it has turned out that most women want choices, and to be free of judgment for their choices. Some want to get married and have kids. Others want to become successful technicians, doctors, lawyers, CEOs, etc. Most want something in between, but what I think the vast majority of us can agree on is that we want to stop being stereotyped and/or looked down upon because of our personal choices.

    I'll use myself as an example. I'm not working right now (although I am going to school), and I spend about 40% of my time with my significant other. Some people might see this and think, "she is setting us back." I actually felt pretty insecure about it for a while. But honestly, I am not hurting feminism in any way. It is so common now for women to work and/or be single that those things have sort of lost their connection to feminism. I am simply enjoying life.

    I think a fourth wave is emerging: one that doesn't focus on what women should or shouldn't do, but on choices and acceptance. If a woman wants to simply be a wife and mother, let her. If she wants to prioritize her career, let her. If she feels better being single than being in a relationship, that's perfectly fine. As long as we all respect each other's choices, I don't see a problem with that philosophy.

    Of course, I think this is easily confused with anti-feminism, and the concept of "I want to prioritize my family because that's what women are supposed to do." The difference seems small, but it is extremely significant. Who are any of us to tell other women what they are supposed to do?

    Regardless of how you feel about feminism, do you think that this new approach is progress for women, or is it actually setting us back?
    First, despite momentous progress in the past century, women still have neither political nor economic equality. The first will not be secure until an equal rights amendment is passed. That the second is lacking is obvious in persistent wage and wealth disparities.

    Second and more importantly, equal opportunity for women will not be achieved until we also have equal opportunity for men. Until men feel free to exercise the full range of choices you list: staying home with children, pursuing a career, or some combination thereof, women will still bear the brunt of domestic responsibilities, both in expectation and execution. Perhaps this is the part that modern feminism misses, namely that we cannot succeed in releasing one sex from traditional expectations, without also releasing the other. Then choices will truly come down to individual preference, not external expectations.

    As for what women are supposed to do: I have no problem telling a woman (or a man) that what she/he is supposed to do is what makes best sense for her/him as an individual. That difference indeed is huge. A woman choosing to prioritize family because that is what she prefers and enjoys is quite different from choosing it due to cultural expectations, social pressure, or some other external constraint.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
    Likes Reborn Relic, Yuu, Thalassa liked this post

  10. #10
    Damn American Cowboy Reborn Relic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    568

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That mostly sounds to me like how the third wave was already supposed to be different from the second wave, actually. And it sounds like a particularly pronounced form of what is often called libertarian feminism.

    My problem with this strain of feminism comes in two forms. One, if it's taken to its maximum extent, it starts to run into a self-defeating wall where the demands of supporting women in their choices no matter what would logically include supporting a woman who chooses to undermine womens' status in society, someone like Phyllis Schlafly. So we have to ask ourselves if supporting every single woman can be extended even to choices that threaten feminism. I would say no.
    Which choices do you believe threaten feminism?

    The second point is that this kind of thinking is just really bad for making a movement that can accomplish anything. "Do whatever you want" and "support people in doing whatever they want" are not positions that tend to lead to socio-political reforms. So no matter how well intentioned it is, it can end up being so ineffectual as to cease achieving any further progress, or even ceding ground to anti-feminists, thus amounting to giving up on feminism altogether. At worst, if your feminism is that ineffectual and you try to push that approach to feminism onto other feminists, it could be argued that you are trying to spread an ineffectual approach in a way that is tantamount to sabotage.
    I think this points to a flaw in the mentality of feminism, in that it's focused on the actions of individual women at all. There are so many system-level things that could be fixed that don't require a movement to tell individual members how to act in their actual lives, at least to a large extent. For instance, media--why not use the power of large scale organizations relying on donor or taxpayer money to prop up feminist works and channels with feminist advertising, rather than just telling women not to view xyz or do xyz?
    "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

    --Theodore Roosevelt


    “Be careful, lest in casting out your demon you exorcise the best thing in you.”

    --Friedrich Nietzche

    I have a Johari again

Similar Threads

  1. Quotes to Motivate You to *Get To Work*
    By Usehername in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 09-21-2014, 12:36 PM
  2. Colorful Sayings/Quotes
    By ladypinkington in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 05-10-2010, 06:28 PM
  3. Words of Wisdom, Inspiring Quotes, etc
    By rivercrow in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 11-21-2008, 06:39 PM
  4. [MBTItm] Quote on Intution
    By heart in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 07-15-2007, 01:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO