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  1. #401
    F CK all I need is U ilikeitlikethat's Avatar
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    Looking back though, college was fun; my secondary school Haling Manor High School was a little rough but college was okay, mellow;
    I majored in Japanese language.

    Needless to say, I liked college and thought it was more easy than school.

  2. #402
    F CK all I need is U ilikeitlikethat's Avatar
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    Can Germany get what Britain's got in terms of ethnic diversity and national identity?
    It's EU policy suggests it wants this.

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    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    Evo, moj odgovor ce biti na Engleskom jer tema je za sudionice engleskog jezika. Volio bih i dalje raspravljati s tobom na hrvatskom ali to mozda u privatnom mjestu. Uglavnom, to mi pomaze s pisanjem na hrvatskom koje meni ide malo slabije nego na engleskom. Jebiga sta ces kad si u tudjini rodjen i skolovan.
    Razumljivo, mozemo probati i to.
    Makar upozoravm te da ja koristim ponešto slenga te ponekda fulam Č i Ć jer mi na sjeveru Hrvatske kršimo pravila i sve izgovaramo više manje sa Č.




    Reason I asked is it seems stability or the perception of stability is most important when it comes to your political leanings and of the people I've talked to from the Ex-Yugo, the most supportive ones of it claim stability as their primary reason. Consequently almost all of those Ex-Yugo nostalgics have the same high opinion of the EU and support it for the same stability and peace reasons.
    Yes, for us stability is absolutely huge deal because it is short supply. Few wrong moves/events and everything will be in flames. Just today Republika Srpska had it's day of the state or independance (something like that) and despite the fact that Supreme court in Sarajevo said this is illegal. Plus they said they want to be united with Serbia and Putin is directly involved. Therefore if EU or NATO doesn't have our backs we could be back in 1991. in a blink. Plus you have the refugee problem, separatists in Istria, we still didn't fully recover from the war, there is not enough jobs for everybody, state administation is messy and unpredictable, banks manipulate people etc etc. So the situation is fragile and can go wrong in a blink



    It's logical to be skeptical of capitalism, especially American capitalism as its practiced around the world today. But what I'm saying is that it's not exactly the same as a 'free market.' I live in America and I'm plenty skeptical and cautious and vigilant of corruption from within.
    Well, capitalism is here foreign system regardles how it is structured in some details. So it is often hard to convince people of anything, this takes time.



    I agree with you. The push towards privatization and corporate capitalism all at once had negative consequences for people like it usually does. It's very difficult to force a new system on people that have been so conditioned for a very different system.
    This isn't that bad as long as you don't have WW2 style war in the same package and if people who would run such system are not the people who think they can be anything. Being a Capitalist is a skill and you can't just decide one day that you will lead capitalist economy because you have full faith into such system. Perhaps he biggest problem is that we have a deficit of quality leadership since we are getting rised in the system that is too much into crony capitalism. The Irony is that EU is actually the mechanism that fights this because Croatia in the terms of economy is much more anti market than most EU countries. Since out economy didn't evolve too far from the days of Yugoslavia.



    I wish you would've waited a little longer until the EU was more clear on its inner workings and direction it's going in. There was heavy-handed push to join at all costs regardless of the consequences. I'm not against the concept of a Europe that close and cooperative (that's a good thing) but all of that should be under the scrutiny of cost-benefit analysis. I disagree that the growing failure is the fault of open markets though and more so because of the inner workings of the political class throughout Europe. A wider market has been nothing but a net positive for the country so long as domestic business isn't destroyed. Certain laws, national laws, especially focused on the interest of the economy should always supercede EU law.
    Yeah, but this isn't that simple. Because Croatia is small and basically cheap country, therefore if market is opened foreign companies can with ease buy pretty much everything for peanuts. What is real threat to independace and stability of the country, which was seriously undermined even before we entered the EU. We basically lost the independance when the government sold the banks to foreign big banks during the 90s and since that moment we are basically a colony in certain sense. About 85% of the banking market in Croatia is foreign owned, what is insane. (and the other 15% is one random bank that by some weird case remained as government property, they tried to sell it as well but it has some kind of a legal defect and therefore they give up on privatising the bank)


    Ideally open borders as far as goods and services is a good thing so long as national law and domestic well being is at the head of any discussion. Open borders for goods and services is one thing, however, exporting and importing immigrants and religions is another all together and it definitely seems like Europe is slipping on that front. Most of the former commies over there have jumped on the neoliberal train of thought. Socially they remain socialists but economically they serve big business and that's what the EU is essentially. Placating the people with toxic welfare isn't a great path to prosperity especially when austerity is the inevitable conclusion (just ask the Greeks).
    Yes, the refugee thing in Germany was weird but there is another side of story, back in the 90s when the war was here plenty of our people run away to Germany and they let them in and give them food, jobs etc. Therefore I think it would be unfair from me to trully condem them about this, even if this is very questionable decision.



    I'm considered an 'American capitalist' too, haha but I'm never mistaken for a lefty by people on the right either. I like the idea of a fair market over a free market in its current context which is promoting entrepreneurship and venture capitalism but not so much to the point of being at the expense of national sovereignty. That's sometimes a fine line walk. But I agree with you overall, transitioning to a market economy from a socialist one needs to be gradual and not induced shock therapy.
    Yeah, since this is super fragile process and needs to be done in privacy without market grab and similar stuff. Otherwise you are just making a case for old system. Which is exactly why you have so much Yugonostalgia these days.


    Having higher interest rates is actually good in terms of long term stability. The reason why Western economies are teetering so much is because interest rates very low, zero, or even negative which encourages more and more lending to the point of being toxic unpayable loans which are then punished with austerity. Interest rates that work encourage financial responsibility and efficient calculation since everything is no so free anymore.
    I was talking about interest rates that people will have to pay in order to buy a place for a living or start a business. Therefore if such interest rates tend to be in the 5 to 8% range then this is clearly destimulating the economy. Espcially since it is matematically hard to make a realistic business model that can from the start pay so large interest rates. (I mean we are new to capitalism and we lost plenty of stuff in the war ... so we need fresh money). Which is overal probably the dynamic they want because with too high interets rates the foreign banks stimulate import from their own domestic countries (since we can't start our own economy properly). What is the main reason why I and pretty much anyone else here that thinks about economy claims that fully free market can be deadly. Which is why I claim that freedom of internal market is the largest problem of the union and the union will brake if this isn't regulated better.



    In modern banking and contemporary Western governments when they 'spend' they actually borrow. It's all good until they can't borrow anymore and loans have to be repaid with interest. It would be one thing if the government generated all its income from a direct tax base but it doesn't work that way, it couldn't work that way since people would revolt for taxes being too high. The EU, like the U.S. encourages further this borrow-spend mentality via their central banks. Don't confuse limiting government spending with stopping government spending. It would utter chaos if government cut all spending tomorrow. Rather, limiting spending (and you do that by raising interest rates since they borrow most of their money)forces the government to allocate resources in a more efficient and less wasteful manner because they have to lest they risk losing power and which politicians want to lose power?
    This is why I like laws that regulate how much a state can borrow compared to the GDP. Which is actually a measure induced by EU if I am not mistaken, however governments totally ignore this or project false data, what was the case with Greece. Which is why the debt managed to climb all the way to 170% of annual GDP.

    The state should probably not be able to borrow any money unless there is a crisis of some sort, since this very big argument against social programs. Since people don't want to pay tax money that will end in as interest rates of spending on pointless projects that could be done simply because there was "easy money".



    But what if it isn't going in a direction of being constructive and stable? How many times must one try to revive the patient before it's actually pronounced dead? Croatia knows. Austria-Hungary ended in ashes. The first Yugoslavia ended with disaster only to be resurrected in new clothes after WW2 but that also failed. These unions seem to fail consistently. If we're using history as a lesson, maybe that's something to consider?
    I think this is mixing of the thesis. EU is somewhat differnt since it tries to keep trully everyone in Europe under the same roof. What is perhaps the only thing that can prevent WW1, WW2, cold war, various local wars and all similar events. The idea is exactly in trying to prevent stuff like this from happening again, however the project is getting kiddnaped and now it is questionable what will happen. USA became superpower exactly because it didn't have this constant mess and Europe simply wanted to copy this in best hopes.



    Not exactly. I'm saying Croats are generally happier (relative to Americans) despite having less material wealth. Happiness is measured in terms of more than just material wealth over there (or at least a lot more than it is here). There's some wealth but little and I don't know if that can be toted as an "accomplishment" of the pro-EU government.

    Also, it's a question of culture and mentality too. People there stick together more than people here and there's several reasons for that. Lower population and less ethno-diversity creates a higher baseline of initial trust. Most of the people you meet over there are very much like you raised with the same culture and customs and small but specific niches that only you and they can understand. In many places in Croatia your neighbor is like family and you know their family. It's not uncommon for them to come over and eat dinner at your house a lot or for them to even come over 'uninvited.' You know them as people and not just some abstract 'neighbor' which is much more the case here.

    That is true, we are probably happier then many in America despite everything what I typed here. Which is exactly why I said a few bad things about fully open Capitalism, we have less but we are more happy. However over the last 6 or 7 years plenty of that happiness got lost exactly since we went too far into direction of America (or EU as you wish). The neigbour thing you mention is surpresed through insecurity and money problems, internet is introducing idiotisms that are large problem in America (SJWs, safe spaces, mass depression, jobless existance culture etc), media turned into crap not worth watching, Russian influence in the region was resurrected, debt went from 30% to 85% of GDP, we lost plenty of trade partners in various wars and revolutions (just today our ex oil field in Syria were blown to pieces), many people emmigrated due to economy so families go separated, etc etc.


    What is exactly why Yugonostalgia is on the rise, even if it is just "good old times" garbage that doesn't really represent anything for the most part.



    Technically the Croatian economy can stand on its own two feet. That's not denying there's problems ( there definitely are) but the problems are not because you're lacking anything externally but rather internally you're besieged by corruption. You have a profitable tourism industry, you have a decent agricultural sector relative to the size of the country (Croatia can produce 4 to 5 times agriculture than needed to sustain itself), and local regional trade does very well for Croatia (Croatia exports to local neighbors than anyone else in the region which actually creates a trade surplus). So the 'holy grail' isn't something that must be sought externally via the EU but something that must be guarded internally by curbing corruption which is a persistent problem.
    That would be great. But we are dependant in a few ways and that is energy and meterials (since we don't have ore). If EU crashes we can probably make it somehow, the problem is what happens if EU succeeds and we stay out of it. Since we don't have size or wealth of Swizerland or Norway, which are technically in EU by the amount of treaties they have with it. Which is why UK is so careful with Brexit since going against EU is potentially dangerous. Since despite all the drama in the media it is still almost the largest economy in the world, has nukes and over a half a billion of people. The EU should not be a threat to anybody but the fact is that it technically could be, since it is a really big system. Bigger than people perceive it.



    Also, you have a huge diaspora that's very vested into your country. Some numbers suggest that the Croatian diaspora (me and people like me) is greater in number than Croatians living there. The vast majority of the diaspora lives in advanced Western countries (being the highest % in the USA) and a lot of us invest into Croatia. Annual investment from the Croatian diaspora in Croatia actually numbers in the billions. Believe me when I say 4.2 million of you there are not alone in the world.
    I am aware of this, just the other day I wrote a post how there is almost no countries in the world where Croats don't live or come to visit. Diaspora could easily be the greatest asset we have.

    But ...
    This can be hard to understand by people who are not scientists and engineers but my greatest discmofort about Croatia that is on it's own are not all the "standard threats". It is technological progress that is increasing in speed and associated costs. Therefore countries who cooperate in this area are very likely to advance faster than others since knowledge is power and costs of technological advancement are going above budgets or GDPs of various countries, what results in favoring the large systems, since technology is working in their favor. This is very abstract argument but this makes me uncomfortable, not only because of Croatia but because of entire word. Since this is a serious threat to individualism on the most basic level.



    I haven't met many Croats that say everything is fantastic there. Just because most have an unwavering love for their homeland doesn't mean they think it's perfect, far from it. Some have misconceptions about me and people like me living in America. They think I have a lot of material wealth but I don't. I'm working class just like most people. A lot of young Croats want to move to Germany still for more job opportunities and EU membership has not changed that unfortunately (in fact its encouraged it more).
    This is why I prefer EU generally as a political union over economc union. Since open markets lead some countries to oblivion and that will be the end of EU.



    But thanks for sharing your views more. I was under the impression that your underlying support for the EU stems from your disappointment in your own people and culture. I've seen you post a few times that you think we're uncivilized if left to our own vices and that we need a larger player like the EU to come 'keep us barbarians in check.
    Nope, totally not true. I want EU primarly to end violent tensions in Europe and create general sense of stability that good proportion of the continent lacks. Plus this way we will have easier time standing against outsiders. For example for years China wants to make huge invetments in Croatia, but we are turning them down over and over again since we have some kind of alternative and protection. Therefore to be honest I would rather be in the union with Germany, Finland, Spain, Slovakia etc than with China.

    I am totally ok with Croatia on it's own it is just that I find this to be unrealistic in the current world.


    Also all socialistic elements that I have are because: here huge parts of the population is dependant on the government since they lost their savings and retirements in the collapse of the old system. I am ok with limted welfare, especially because without it we wouldn't repair the damage done by war (or it would take 50+ years). Also it is hard for me to look the other way since good chunk of my generation would not survive in the case that government didn't cure our childhood desease in the time of complete social collapse. Etc Etc. I don't care about ideology at all and everywhere where I stand is because of very concrete and pragmatic reasons behind it.


    In the case that our average income is 3000$ a month I wouldn't say anything, but this way I am simply trying to protect people hit by bad circumstances.

  4. #404
    Privileged Sh!tlord ZNP-TBA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Razumljivo, mozemo probati i to.
    Makar upozoravm te da ja koristim ponešto slenga te ponekda fulam Č i Ć jer mi na sjeveru Hrvatske kršimo pravila i sve izgovaramo više manje sa Č.
    Haha nema problema. Daj reci, jesi ti mozda kajkavac? Rekao si par puta da zivis u Zagrebu. Odakle je tvoja obitelj? Zagorje, Istra?

    Yes, for us stability is absolutely huge deal because it is short supply. Few wrong moves/events and everything will be in flames. Just today Republika Srpska had it's day of the state or independance (something like that) and despite the fact that Supreme court in Sarajevo said this is illegal. Plus they said they want to be united with Serbia and Putin is directly involved. Therefore if EU or NATO doesn't have our backs we could be back in 1991. in a blink. Plus you have the refugee problem, separatists in Istria, we still didn't fully recover from the war, there is not enough jobs for everybody, state administation is messy and unpredictable, banks manipulate people etc etc. So the situation is fragile and can go wrong in a blink
    I don't think it's as dire as you think. RS doesn't really have an army anymore to back up their nationalism as BiH's army is largely integrated now and regularly participates in NATO exercises along with Croatia and even with Serbia. Croats in BiH still celebrate Oluja, Cro independence day, and the declaration of Herceg-Bosna and nothing really happens. The 'separatists' in Istra are a blip on the radar and insignificant and most Istrijani are at least somewhat patriotic about Croatia (based on my experience anyway).


    Well, capitalism is here foreign system regardles how it is structured in some details. So it is often hard to convince people of anything, this takes time.
    Yeah but over the last 25 years people have gotten more used to capitalism and its not a completely brand new system nobody is familiar with. Even before the war, some Croatian businesses were quasi-capitalistic with various degrees of state control. I guess what I'm saying is that it wasn't stringent as the Soviet Union and there were pro-market economic reforms as early as the late 70s.

    The Irony is that EU is actually the mechanism that fights this because Croatia in the terms of economy is much more anti market than most EU countries. Since out economy didn't evolve too far from the days of Yugoslavia.
    How does the EU fight this?

    About 85% of the banking market in Croatia is foreign owned, what is insane. (and the other 15% is one random bank that by some weird case remained as government property, they tried to sell it as well but it has some kind of a legal defect and therefore they give up on privatising the bank)
    Yes but with the EU, even though you're not in the Eurozone, that's the next logical step. Eventually the EU central bank will completely consume the Croatian central bank causing Croatian voters to have zero control over the currency they use. I agree though, having multinational banks controlling so much is not a good thing but Croatia really had no choice. All the debt that was acquired by Yugoslavia didn't simply disappear. For one reason or the other, a lot of that debt responsibility was thrust on the new Croatian state as well as the debt from and after the War for arms and reconstruction. That caused the local Croatian banks to go bankrupt.

    Yes, the refugee thing in Germany was weird but there is another side of story, back in the 90s when the war was here plenty of our people run away to Germany and they let them in and give them food, jobs etc. Therefore I think it would be unfair from me to trully condem them about this, even if this is very questionable decision.
    I follow your logic but I disagree with the conclusion of it being the same. Balkan refugees were European and a lot of them were Christian or at least secular Muslim (in the case of Bosniaks). They've also successfully integrated and assimilated into their home countries. It's much easier for Europeans to integrate in Europe much like it would be easier for Syrians to integrate and assimilate into another Middle Eastern country than somewhere else. On top of that the Balkan refugees were granted temporary status and many of them returned to the Balkans after things settled down or moved outside of Europe to places like America, Canada, and Australia (and have successfully assimilated into those countries as well). And think of the bigger picture, Europe took care of European refugees but the Middle East, especially Saudi Arabia, is doing virtually nothing to take care of refugees in that region tasking Europe with the majority of the work.
    I was talking about interest rates that people will have to pay in order to buy a place for a living or start a business. Therefore if such interest rates tend to be in the 5 to 8% range then this is clearly destimulating the economy. Espcially since it is matematically hard to make a realistic business model that can from the start pay so large interest rates. (I mean we are new to capitalism and we lost plenty of stuff in the war ... so we need fresh money). Which is overal probably the dynamic they want because with too high interets rates the foreign banks stimulate import from their own domestic countries (since we can't start our own economy properly). What is the main reason why I and pretty much anyone else here that thinks about economy claims that fully free market can be deadly. Which is why I claim that freedom of internal market is the largest problem of the union and the union will brake if this isn't regulated better.
    When interest works properly it's supposed to stimulate the economy in the long run. When interest rates go high then that signals to investors and people with money to save more and spend less. When the interest rate starts to decrease then that signals to investors to spend money on projects causing a boom. The money is solvent because it's saved wealth rather than borrowed wealth. Ultimately the interest rate on money itself controls for all other interest rates. I agree that fresh money was needed after the war for reconstruction and Croatia got it but the problem was that the faucet was never turned off. Instead of Croatia getting the money to rebuild vital infrastructure (which it did) it kept taking loans long after that for other 'projects.' Why? because the interest rate was always kept low for years until it started to increase making paying back loans more difficult to the point of Croatian banks going bankrupt and having multinationals buy their debt. Croatia should've borrowed the money necessary to rebuild and then stop taking from the trough paying back the loans enough until it could borrow again without accruing more debt than it can mathematically pay back. What the EU is going to do to Croatia is the same formula not because the EU is malevolent but because that's how it's designed. It's going to get Croatia access to cheap credit in exchange for sovereign territory in Croatia to be sold to the highest bidder which will make Croatia utterly dependent on EU law and procedure which will force it to accept EU decisions (even if its unpopular with the people) and make it suicidal and near impossible to leave. That's throwing away hard fought independence not in a bloody takeover but a silent whimper.


    This is why I like laws that regulate how much a state can borrow compared to the GDP. Which is actually a measure induced by EU if I am not mistaken, however governments totally ignore this or project false data, what was the case with Greece. Which is why the debt managed to climb all the way to 170% of annual GDP.
    The problem is it's often the state that wants to borrow more so the politicians can spend more to buy more votes which keeps them in power. It's also the state that measures GDP and publishes official numbers. As you said with Greece, these numbers can simply be manipulated which solves nothing.

    The state should probably not be able to borrow any money unless there is a crisis of some sort, since this very big argument against social programs. Since people don't want to pay tax money that will end in as interest rates of spending on pointless projects that could be done simply because there was "easy money".
    Yeah this is highly unlikely to happen. Politicians, especially in Democratic countries, often care only about short term gain than long term prosperity. Why? Because terms are limited and a politician would rather make their term look good and kick the can down the road to the next person.

    I think this is mixing of the thesis. EU is somewhat differnt since it tries to keep trully everyone in Europe under the same roof.
    Except Russia and its not really trying to get Switzerland yet.

    What is perhaps the only thing that can prevent WW1, WW2, cold war, various local wars and all similar events. The idea is exactly in trying to prevent stuff like this from happening again, however the project is getting kiddnaped and now it is questionable what will happen. USA became superpower exactly because it didn't have this constant mess and Europe simply wanted to copy this in best hopes.
    Well the U.S. also has geography on its side and its only two neighbors are quite peaceful in comparison. Furthermore, the individual states (except for Texas) never had a long history of nationhood or independence. Also, for the most part, they were monolingual. The history of the states predates that of the United States but much of the evolution of the states is directly intertwined with the creation of the U.S. This is unlike Europe or even Great Britain which is a collection of sovereign states all with their own history. And honestly, the EU isn't magically going to stop a war from happening, Austria Hungary (which was most like the EU in the 19th century) couldn't prevent ww1 and all 'unions' that followed seem to have short life spans. At some point maybe we have to consider that the political 'union' concepts are not that great.

    As for your following comment I agree, its not all rosy and flowers but you still have the fortune of not being suffocated by political multiculturalism since your country is largely dominated by the unified culture of its majority which still creates a higher baseline of trust (studies have been done on this, btw).

    That would be great. But we are dependant in a few ways and that is energy and meterials (since we don't have ore). If EU crashes we can probably make it somehow, the problem is what happens if EU succeeds and we stay out of it.
    You made it before you joined. It's a myth that any country that exits the EU or isn't in the EU is going to suffer something like energy sanctions, lol. Sanctions are like an act of war and there's no acceptable pretense for that simply because a country wants their sovereignty.

    Since we don't have size or wealth of Swizerland or Norway, which are technically in EU by the amount of treaties they have with it. Which is why UK is so careful with Brexit since going against EU is potentially dangerous. Since despite all the drama in the media it is still almost the largest economy in the world, has nukes and over a half a billion of people. The EU should not be a threat to anybody but the fact is that it technically could be, since it is a really big system. Bigger than people perceive it.
    I don't see why a country can't be sovereign and still cooperate with the EU? Is there something in EU law that prevents it from being friendly with non-member European countries? But you're argument is amounting to "We're too small to be sovereign anyway, we need a larger power to lead us." I've seen you criticize people here for being too 'defeatist' when it comes to the future of the EU but aren't you kind of just being defeatist about your own country being truly sovereign? We're small we suck, lol.


    This can be hard to understand by people who are not scientists and engineers but my greatest discmofort about Croatia that is on it's own are not all the "standard threats". It is technological progress that is increasing in speed and associated costs. Therefore countries who cooperate in this area are very likely to advance faster than others since knowledge is power and costs of technological advancement are going above budgets or GDPs of various countries, what results in favoring the large systems, since technology is working in their favor. This is very abstract argument but this makes me uncomfortable, not only because of Croatia but because of entire word. Since this is a serious threat to individualism on the most basic level.
    Ok, this is like falling back to another trench. At first you need the EU because trade, then its because of stability keeping away the threat of war, then it was global warming, now it's technological progress. There's no reason Croatia has to be left out of the technological loop with or without the EU. Again, there's no reason Croatia cant' work closely with the EU as it has before it joined. It wasn't EU politics that got Croatia high speed internet (Heck, Romania had the fastest internet in Europe before it even joined the EU).


    This is why I prefer EU generally as a political union over economc union. Since open markets lead some countries to oblivion and that will be the end of EU.
    Don't you think it might be naive to think you can have a political union without it having a huge impact on the economy? Politicians create laws which regulate the economy so the two are one in the same when you really think about it. Britain and the EU had a political union but not a purely economic one (Britain still kept it's bank and own currency) but inevitably Brussels was getting more decision making power when it came to Britain's economy which was one of the reasons that led to the referendum.

    I want EU primarly to end violent tensions in Europe and create general sense of stability that good proportion of the continent lacks.
    Europe is pretty stable and has been since the fall of the Soviet Union and Berlin Wall (Balkans excluded) and Western Europe has been stable since the end of WW2. There's already a successful (even if overpriced) force protecting Europe and that's NATO (which in some ways is obsolete). Communism was the greatest threat facing Europe back in the day and Communism lost. Now the greatest threat facing Europe is open borders combined with massive welfare, and waves of non-European migrants and I'd argue that the EU leadership is on the wrong side of this. Doesn't look good.

    Plus this way we will have easier time standing against outsiders. For example for years China wants to make huge invetments in Croatia, but we are turning them down over and over again since we have some kind of alternative and protection. Therefore to be honest I would rather be in the union with Germany, Finland, Spain, Slovakia etc than with China.
    The EU big banks are multinational just like the American and Chinese ones. It really doesn't matter which multinational screws you, the result is the same. It's akin to asking someone to chose their rapist.

    I am totally ok with Croatia on it's own it is just that I find this to be unrealistic in the current world.
    Defeatist much?
    Croatia would be fine as fully sovereign but still cooperating closely with its regional and European neighbors. I haven't heard an argument as to why this isn't possible.


    Also all socialistic elements that I have are because: here huge parts of the population is dependant on the government since they lost their savings and retirements in the collapse of the old system. I am ok with limted welfare, especially because without it we wouldn't repair the damage done by war (or it would take 50+ years). Also it is hard for me to look the other way since good chunk of my generation would not survive in the case that government didn't cure our childhood desease in the time of complete social collapse. Etc Etc. I don't care about ideology at all and everywhere where I stand is because of very concrete and pragmatic reasons behind it.


    In the case that our average income is 3000$ a month I wouldn't say anything, but this way I am simply trying to protect people hit by bad circumstances.
    Jeez, it's hard to come by $3000/mo in America even for someone that's working class. That might be setting the bar a little too high. You have to weigh the cost of living against the net earnings which would differ greatly even among EU states. I don't who's saying end all government programs? I'm sorry if I implied that. You can't just eliminate everything in one fell swoop. The goal isn't to eliminate all government spending but rather reduce the amount of dependency on government spending so the country can actually save and invest into itself as well as appear to be a stable place for others to invest into. With the EU you have faceless foreigners with offices in foreign cities telling you how to manage your economy instead of having it handled and reformed domestically. Even if a domestic politician is corrupt at least they're directly accountable to the voters in your country rather than a faceless person that can't be touched elsewhere. Food for thought.

  5. #405
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    Haha nema problema. Daj reci, jesi ti mozda kajkavac? Rekao si par puta da zivis u Zagrebu. Odakle je tvoja obitelj? Zagorje, Istra?
    Moji su ti sa kontinenta, tj obitelj mi je uglavnom iz centralne Hrvatske/Zagorija, Slavonije i Slovenije. Nisam standardni kajkavac ali kako sam iz Zagreba imam veze s kajkavcima jer to je zapravo tradicionalno narječje. Međutim kako svi dolaze u Zagreb to se sve izmješalo u Zagrebu.



    I don't think it's as dire as you think. RS doesn't really have an army anymore to back up their nationalism as BiH's army is largely integrated now and regularly participates in NATO exercises along with Croatia and even with Serbia. Croats in BiH still celebrate Oluja, Cro independence day, and the declaration of Herceg-Bosna and nothing really happens. The 'separatists' in Istra are a blip on the radar and insignificant and most Istrijani are at least somewhat patriotic about Croatia (based on my experience anyway).
    I am not saying that situation is dire, I am saying there is plenty of room and potential for things to go wrong. Especially since this part of the world tends to function on the basic that if you smash the system enough everything else raptures in chain reaction. Even without EU/NATO we can fight them off again it is just that I don't want to have another mess, since our own army as well isn't what it used to be.


    Yeah but over the last 25 years people have gotten more used to capitalism and its not a completely brand new system nobody is familiar with. Even before the war, some Croatian businesses were quasi-capitalistic with various degrees of state control. I guess what I'm saying is that it wasn't stringent as the Soviet Union and there were pro-market economic reforms as early as the late 70s.
    True, however our real ventures into towards Capitalism start somewhere around 2000. Plus even this day we are very far from western stye of Capitalism since the government is trully everywhere.


    How does the EU fight this?
    Since we were a Communist country that had very bad experiances with privatisation there was plenty of people who started to believe that having a business is almost a criminal offence (and many still do). However over the last few years through EU there is a massive and constant campaign that having a business is something desirable and good. I admit that our own politicans could have done this long ago but they didn't. Probably since they are protecting local monoplies or advantages, so in this regard EU was a positive force.


    Yes but with the EU, even though you're not in the Eurozone, that's the next logical step. Eventually the EU central bank will completely consume the Croatian central bank causing Croatian voters to have zero control over the currency they use. I agree though, having multinational banks controlling so much is not a good thing but Croatia really had no choice. All the debt that was acquired by Yugoslavia didn't simply disappear. For one reason or the other, a lot of that debt responsibility was thrust on the new Croatian state as well as the debt from and after the War for arms and reconstruction. That caused the local Croatian banks to go bankrupt.
    The truth is that no one trully knows what was happening in our economy in the 90s. This is almost taboo topic here.
    I am not even sure that the debts were that big as much as some elites could have simply pumped the money out of the banks. Since everything was allowed at the time and we spent alot of money on scraping the army in dire need. So no one knows where did all the money go.



    I follow your logic but I disagree with the conclusion of it being the same. Balkan refugees were European and a lot of them were Christian or at least secular Muslim (in the case of Bosniaks). They've also successfully integrated and assimilated into their home countries. It's much easier for Europeans to integrate in Europe much like it would be easier for Syrians to integrate and assimilate into another Middle Eastern country than somewhere else. On top of that the Balkan refugees were granted temporary status and many of them returned to the Balkans after things settled down or moved outside of Europe to places like America, Canada, and Australia (and have successfully assimilated into those countries as well). And think of the bigger picture, Europe took care of European refugees but the Middle East, especially Saudi Arabia, is doing virtually nothing to take care of refugees in that region tasking Europe with the majority of the work.
    I am well aware that this is not exactly the same, however the point is that they did this for our people and they did it for many other vicims of conflicts and instability. This is simply what Germany does and I can't condem them just like that on the issue. However this time it is likely that they took too big bite, but the mess that made so many refugee may soon be over so a number of all those people will probably go back.



    When interest works properly it's supposed to stimulate the economy in the long run. When interest rates go high then that signals to investors and people with money to save more and spend less. When the interest rate starts to decrease then that signals to investors to spend money on projects causing a boom. The money is solvent because it's saved wealth rather than borrowed wealth. Ultimately the interest rate on money itself controls for all other interest rates. I agree that fresh money was needed after the war for reconstruction and Croatia got it but the problem was that the faucet was never turned off. Instead of Croatia getting the money to rebuild vital infrastructure (which it did) it kept taking loans long after that for other 'projects.' Why? because the interest rate was always kept low for years until it started to increase making paying back loans more difficult to the point of Croatian banks going bankrupt and having multinationals buy their debt. Croatia should've borrowed the money necessary to rebuild and then stop taking from the trough paying back the loans enough until it could borrow again without accruing more debt than it can mathematically pay back. What the EU is going to do to Croatia is the same formula not because the EU is malevolent but because that's how it's designed. It's going to get Croatia access to cheap credit in exchange for sovereign territory in Croatia to be sold to the highest bidder which will make Croatia utterly dependent on EU law and procedure which will force it to accept EU decisions (even if its unpopular with the people) and make it suicidal and near impossible to leave. That's throwing away hard fought independence not in a bloody takeover but a silent whimper.

    Did I ever claimed that this is not happening or that is impossible ? No.
    We needed money but we had it within our borders and that was basically welfare that repaired the infrastructure through government spending. It is only later in the financial crisis that started about 8 years ago that our financial balance was destroyed. Because of concrete factors in economy and the world and because our politicians got westernized.



    The problem is it's often the state that wants to borrow more so the politicians can spend more to buy more votes which keeps them in power. It's also the state that measures GDP and publishes official numbers. As you said with Greece, these numbers can simply be manipulated which solves nothing.

    Yeah this is highly unlikely to happen. Politicians, especially in Democratic countries, often care only about short term gain than long term prosperity. Why? Because terms are limited and a politician would rather make their term look good and kick the can down the road to the next person.
    Yes, and that is exactly why I said that laws should limit public spending if there isn't a major crisis. In order to prevent buying the votes.


    Except Russia and its not really trying to get Switzerland yet.
    Ehh ... they already have Switzerland. Saying that Switzerland is the model how you get outside of EU is wrong. Since this country has so much treaties with EU that it is basically in the union.


    For example they are in Schengen area and therefore don't have borders with EU countries.





    Also you are free to check facts: in Switzerland about 25% of the people are not native people, due to soft borders there is plenty of people who from neighbouring countries every day go to work in Swizerland, there is trade treaty, scientific cooperation, law enforcement cooperation, they give money to EU which when gives it to the poorer EU states, shared standards in agriculture, Euro is accepted as currency in some parts of the county ... saying that Switzerland is out of EU is actually incorrect.

    Switzerland is like a park: it isn't like the apartment buildings that are around it but you can't really call it the remain of the old system/forrest. Since it is more like a extension of all those apartment buildings around it.



    Well the U.S. also has geography on its side and its only two neighbors are quite peaceful in comparison. Furthermore, the individual states (except for Texas) never had a long history of nationhood or independence. Also, for the most part, they were monolingual. The history of the states predates that of the United States but much of the evolution of the states is directly intertwined with the creation of the U.S. This is unlike Europe or even Great Britain which is a collection of sovereign states all with their own history. And honestly, the EU isn't magically going to stop a war from happening, Austria Hungary (which was most like the EU in the 19th century) couldn't prevent ww1 and all 'unions' that followed seem to have short life spans. At some point maybe we have to consider that the political 'union' concepts are not that great.
    Comparing the EU with Austo-hungarian empire is completely missing the point. Especially since that empire was just a part the continent while EU trully has the ability of placing everyone under the same table. The fact is that wherever EU has come the wars have stopped and we are currently in the most peaceful period of the continent. Feel free to reserach how many wars and incidents there were about 200 or 300 years ago in Europe.



    As for your following comment I agree, its not all rosy and flowers but you still have the fortune of not being suffocated by political multiculturalism since your country is largely dominated by the unified culture of its majority which still creates a higher baseline of trust (studies have been done on this, btw).
    Ok, I can accept this as a fact since it is really logical.
    Btw this is exctly why entire Eastern Europe said "No" to Merkel and the refugee thing.


    You made it before you joined. It's a myth that any country that exits the EU or isn't in the EU is going to suffer something like energy sanctions, lol. Sanctions are like an act of war and there's no acceptable pretense for that simply because a country wants their sovereignty.


    I don't see why a country can't be sovereign and still cooperate with the EU? Is there something in EU law that prevents it from being friendly with non-member European countries? But you're argument is amounting to "We're too small to be sovereign anyway, we need a larger power to lead us." I've seen you criticize people here for being too 'defeatist' when it comes to the future of the EU but aren't you kind of just being defeatist about your own country being truly sovereign? We're small we suck, lol.
    This is where you American citizenship comes in and you think that borders, laws and constitutions are what defines things. Just take a look what your own country does to smaller countries. In Europe almost nobody cares that much about this kind of stuff, since it is nature of Europe that "might makes right". This may not be openly displayed but the factor is there. Evey day I watch people who got violeted on some way and to me all these laws and regulations are nice but there is no guarantees. If you are out of the club you are out of the club, why should anyone do anything for you ? Just take a look at my answer about Switzerland. They didn't make with all those banks and money what means that Croatian chances really aren't that great.


    In the case that we have healthy population where 30% of people isn't in retirement, where people are well educated, where politicians love their country, were 25% of the country isn't economically dead or covered with mine fields I would say "fuck it" let's give it a shot. But with these kinds of cards it is simply unrealistic to expect some glorious success, if success at all. I think I am simply being realistic, this is sad in a way but this is probably simply realistic. If EU can place sanctions on Russia why it couldn't on some small country ? On the other hand EU is still alliance and not everything is lost just if you are in the EU.



    Ok, this is like falling back to another trench. At first you need the EU because trade, then its because of stability keeping away the threat of war, then it was global warming, now it's technological progress. There's no reason Croatia has to be left out of the technological loop with or without the EU. Again, there's no reason Croatia cant' work closely with the EU as it has before it joined. It wasn't EU politics that got Croatia high speed internet (Heck, Romania had the fastest internet in Europe before it even joined the EU).

    I think I just answered this in the last few lines. But to be fully open: yes I think this world will not work out and billions are going to die because of it. Humans have destabilized various geochemical balances and there is about 80 million more of them on the planet every year. What is competely unsutainable and therefore in such case it is better to be part of various clubs and groups than on your own. I think your entire worldwiew will evaporate under the environmental and technological realities of the 21th century, I have technical and scientific education and this isn't really some my random idea.

    The two of us are fundamentally different people when it comes to the picture of the world. (just so that there is no misunderstandings)



    Don't you think it might be naive to think you can have a political union without it having a huge impact on the economy? Politicians create laws which regulate the economy so the two are one in the same when you really think about it. Britain and the EU had a political union but not a purely economic one (Britain still kept it's bank and own currency) but inevitably Brussels was getting more decision making power when it came to Britain's economy which was one of the reasons that led to the referendum.
    My point was that not everything should be wide open if you want more stabile system. There will be some spillovers but they may not even be bad, but in this case there will be no fundamental changes and massive sucking of money and workforce.


    Europe is pretty stable and has been since the fall of the Soviet Union and Berlin Wall (Balkans excluded) and Western Europe has been stable since the end of WW2. There's already a successful (even if overpriced) force protecting Europe and that's NATO (which in some ways is obsolete). Communism was the greatest threat facing Europe back in the day and Communism lost. Now the greatest threat facing Europe is open borders combined with massive welfare, and waves of non-European migrants and I'd argue that the EU leadership is on the wrong side of this. Doesn't look good.
    As I explained in the thread USSR isn't fully dead and you still have some low intensity conlicts in the Eastern Europe. Plus as the world is getting more and more messy we will have more and more refugee on our doors and therefore it is imortant that we have a developed system of defense. Especially since various outer countries are too weak to face larger waves. The 2015 mess happened exactly because there was no master plan or regulations.



    The EU big banks are multinational just like the American and Chinese ones. It really doesn't matter which multinational screws you, the result is the same. It's akin to asking someone to chose their rapist.
    I would prefer European ones to be honest. Since they still have at least some minimal grain of responsibility to people who live here. Plus the odds are that money will be recycled back into our economies.


    Defeatist much?
    Croatia would be fine as fully sovereign but still cooperating closely with its regional and European neighbors. I haven't heard an argument as to why this isn't possible.

    I think I already answered this one. You and I see the world in a very different way.
    It would be nice that reality is different but I just don't see it.



    Jeez, it's hard to come by $3000/mo in America even for someone that's working class. That might be setting the bar a little too high. You have to weigh the cost of living against the net earnings which would differ greatly even among EU states. I don't who's saying end all government programs? I'm sorry if I implied that. You can't just eliminate everything in one fell swoop. The goal isn't to eliminate all government spending but rather reduce the amount of dependency on government spending so the country can actually save and invest into itself as well as appear to be a stable place for others to invest into. With the EU you have faceless foreigners with offices in foreign cities telling you how to manage your economy instead of having it handled and reformed domestically. Even if a domestic politician is corrupt at least they're directly accountable to the voters in your country rather than a faceless person that can't be touched elsewhere. Food for thought.

    Well my point is that if people have more money and more options then it is ok to force them to be more independant.
    The things is that we also get to send our own people that tell others what to do, so this isn't really a dictatorship and onesided process. Because in the end EU still a club and if it is going to suck people of Europe are going crash it, do you think media lines would look as they do in the case EU is trully invincible. As I said million times: this isn't USA, where borders, governments and constitutions last for centuries. This is fundamentally different dynamic between government and it's people.

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    To add to that; The EU isn't a club like the 13 colonies under the crown were;
    Benjamin Franklin used his influence and connections to get everybody to see eye to eye.
    The EU doesn't see eye to eye, doesn't even listen when referendums on EU policy take place.
    Being in the EU is okay, but its expansion was based on peace through control and submission to the EU with infrastructure and automobiles;
    It like the United States today in terms of driving.
    You buy auto insurance in the EU, it's legally covered throughout the EU; that is pretty cool.
    The economic matters differ. There isn't an EU minimum wage; you could earn more Euros per hour at the minimum wage rate in one country than you can another; The open border policy of holding an EU passport says you can live and work in any country you like within the EU.

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    I wonder how Le Pen feels about the Le Touquet accord Vs. her feelings towards the EU should she ever be voted Le président de la France?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Moji su ti sa kontinenta, tj obitelj mi je uglavnom iz centralne Hrvatske/Zagorija, Slavonije i Slovenije. Nisam standardni kajkavac ali kako sam iz Zagreba imam veze s kajkavcima jer to je zapravo tradicionalno narječje. Međutim kako svi dolaze u Zagreb to se sve izmješalo u Zagrebu.





    I am not saying that situation is dire, I am saying there is plenty of room and potential for things to go wrong. Especially since this part of the world tends to function on the basic that if you smash the system enough everything else raptures in chain reaction. Even without EU/NATO we can fight them off again it is just that I don't want to have another mess, since our own army as well isn't what it used to be.




    True, however our real ventures into towards Capitalism start somewhere around 2000. Plus even this day we are very far from western stye of Capitalism since the government is trully everywhere.




    Since we were a Communist country that had very bad experiances with privatisation there was plenty of people who started to believe that having a business is almost a criminal offence (and many still do). However over the last few years through EU there is a massive and constant campaign that having a business is something desirable and good. I admit that our own politicans could have done this long ago but they didn't. Probably since they are protecting local monoplies or advantages, so in this regard EU was a positive force.




    The truth is that no one trully knows what was happening in our economy in the 90s. This is almost taboo topic here.
    I am not even sure that the debts were that big as much as some elites could have simply pumped the money out of the banks. Since everything was allowed at the time and we spent alot of money on scraping the army in dire need. So no one knows where did all the money go.





    I am well aware that this is not exactly the same, however the point is that they did this for our people and they did it for many other vicims of conflicts and instability. This is simply what Germany does and I can't condem them just like that on the issue. However this time it is likely that they took too big bite, but the mess that made so many refugee may soon be over so a number of all those people will probably go back.






    Did I ever claimed that this is not happening or that is impossible ? No.
    We needed money but we had it within our borders and that was basically welfare that repaired the infrastructure through government spending. It is only later in the financial crisis that started about 8 years ago that our financial balance was destroyed. Because of concrete factors in economy and the world and because our politicians got westernized.





    Yes, and that is exactly why I said that laws should limit public spending if there isn't a major crisis. In order to prevent buying the votes.




    Ehh ... they already have Switzerland. Saying that Switzerland is the model how you get outside of EU is wrong. Since this country has so much treaties with EU that it is basically in the union.


    For example they are in Schengen area and therefore don't have borders with EU countries.





    Also you are free to check facts: in Switzerland about 25% of the people are not native people, due to soft borders there is plenty of people who from neighbouring countries every day go to work in Swizerland, there is trade treaty, scientific cooperation, law enforcement cooperation, they give money to EU which when gives it to the poorer EU states, shared standards in agriculture, Euro is accepted as currency in some parts of the county ... saying that Switzerland is out of EU is actually incorrect.

    Switzerland is like a park: it isn't like the apartment buildings that are around it but you can't really call it the remain of the old system/forrest. Since it is more like a extension of all those apartment buildings around it.





    Comparing the EU with Austo-hungarian empire is completely missing the point. Especially since that empire was just a part the continent while EU trully has the ability of placing everyone under the same table. The fact is that wherever EU has come the wars have stopped and we are currently in the most peaceful period of the continent. Feel free to reserach how many wars and incidents there were about 200 or 300 years ago in Europe.





    Ok, I can accept this as a fact since it is really logical.
    Btw this is exctly why entire Eastern Europe said "No" to Merkel and the refugee thing.




    This is where you American citizenship comes in and you think that borders, laws and constitutions are what defines things. Just take a look what your own country does to smaller countries. In Europe almost nobody cares that much about this kind of stuff, since it is nature of Europe that "might makes right". This may not be openly displayed but the factor is there. Evey day I watch people who got violeted on some way and to me all these laws and regulations are nice but there is no guarantees. If you are out of the club you are out of the club, why should anyone do anything for you ? Just take a look at my answer about Switzerland. They didn't make with all those banks and money what means that Croatian chances really aren't that great.


    In the case that we have healthy population where 30% of people isn't in retirement, where people are well educated, where politicians love their country, were 25% of the country isn't economically dead or covered with mine fields I would say "fuck it" let's give it a shot. But with these kinds of cards it is simply unrealistic to expect some glorious success, if success at all. I think I am simply being realistic, this is sad in a way but this is probably simply realistic. If EU can place sanctions on Russia why it couldn't on some small country ? On the other hand EU is still alliance and not everything is lost just if you are in the EU.






    I think I just answered this in the last few lines. But to be fully open: yes I think this world will not work out and billions are going to die because of it. Humans have destabilized various geochemical balances and there is about 80 million more of them on the planet every year. What is competely unsutainable and therefore in such case it is better to be part of various clubs and groups than on your own. I think your entire worldwiew will evaporate under the environmental and technological realities of the 21th century, I have technical and scientific education and this isn't really some my random idea.

    The two of us are fundamentally different people when it comes to the picture of the world. (just so that there is no misunderstandings)





    My point was that not everything should be wide open if you want more stabile system. There will be some spillovers but they may not even be bad, but in this case there will be no fundamental changes and massive sucking of money and workforce.




    As I explained in the thread USSR isn't fully dead and you still have some low intensity conlicts in the Eastern Europe. Plus as the world is getting more and more messy we will have more and more refugee on our doors and therefore it is imortant that we have a developed system of defense. Especially since various outer countries are too weak to face larger waves. The 2015 mess happened exactly because there was no master plan or regulations.





    I would prefer European ones to be honest. Since they still have at least some minimal grain of responsibility to people who live here. Plus the odds are that money will be recycled back into our economies.





    I think I already answered this one. You and I see the world in a very different way.
    It would be nice that reality is different but I just don't see it.






    Well my point is that if people have more money and more options then it is ok to force them to be more independant.
    The things is that we also get to send our own people that tell others what to do, so this isn't really a dictatorship and onesided process. Because in the end EU still a club and if it is going to suck people of Europe are going crash it, do you think media lines would look as they do in the case EU is trully invincible. As I said million times: this isn't USA, where borders, governments and constitutions last for centuries. This is fundamentally different dynamic between government and it's people.
    The UK is leaving the EU, (at least, that's what the Prime Minister says).
    Merkel says Britain can't cherry pick what it wants from access to the free market without freedom of movement;
    To which the Prime Minister made very clear, the UK isn't cherry picking what it wants from the EU and what it doesn't want from the EU; The UK is seeking trade with the EU, not cherry picking at all, the UK is not renegotiating saying 'I want this this that but you can keep that'; The UK is leaving. The 4 major principles of the EU (the freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders) don't apply here since the UK's not going to be in the EU.
    Angela Merkel threatens to restrict EU single market access unless Theresa May accepts free movement
    You can't treat the UK like an EU nation since the UK isn't planning to stay in the EU; so the 4 principals of EU membership will no longer apply.
    Angela Merkel vows to block full single market access without free movement after Theresa May interview | The Independent
    Merkel is wrong to think that way of, if you want one, you must have the other; Tell that to France, UK's not EU.
    The basic terms of membership don't apply to non members so to be a non member of the EU but to do what Merkel says all members must do is a bit crazy.

    Switzerland, I don't think wanted to join the EU; if they did, they would; it's not a case of Switzerland not making the cut, it's a case of Switzerland being neutral; again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ilikeitlikethat View Post
    The UK is leaving the EU, (at least, that's what the Prime Minister says).
    Merkel says Britain can't cherry pick what it wants from access to the free market without freedom of movement;
    To which the Prime Minister made very clear, the UK isn't cherry picking what it wants from the EU and what it doesn't want from the EU; The UK is seeking trade with the EU, not cherry picking at all, the UK is not renegotiating saying 'I want this this that but you can keep that'; The UK is leaving. The 4 major principles of the EU (the freedom of movement of goods, people, services and capital over borders) don't apply here since the UK's not going to be in the EU.
    Angela Merkel threatens to restrict EU single market access unless Theresa May accepts free movement
    You can't treat the UK like an EU nation since the UK isn't planning to stay in the EU; so the 4 principals of EU membership will no longer apply.
    Angela Merkel vows to block full single market access without free movement after Theresa May interview | The Independent
    Merkel is wrong to think that way of, if you want one, you must have the other; Tell that to France, UK's not EU.
    The basic terms of membership don't apply to non members so to be a non member of the EU but to do what Merkel says all members must do is a bit crazy.

    Switzerland, I don't think wanted to join the EU; if they did, they would; it's not a case of Switzerland not making the cut, it's a case of Switzerland being neutral; again.

    To tell you the truth I don't really care anymore. I ventured into the politics on this site for fun and sake of exploration, but I don't really care about classical form of politics. Especially since my bet is that technological developement will make workforce obsolite and that will be the end of Capitalism, since humans with their hands and skills will not be able to produce the best product on the market. While market can't function if over 50% of the people don't have a job and they wouldn't get one.


    On the other hand humanity has disrupted a number of geochemical/geophysical balances and that means that some fundamntal things about this word are going to change. (almost surely for the worst)
    I think we already talked about London under the rising sea.


    So this is what I actually think on the issue.

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    Europe has many great cities, and they're all out there.

    I myself live in London and remember the night I came home and unpacked from Amsterdam, was cool.
    I went by road so it took 8 or 9 hours, but yeah, it was done by road.
    Same must then apply to; Paris, Rome, Madrid, Berlin...
    I like this part of the world.
    From Dublin to Athens. I don't know how getting a car to Iceland works, but if there's a service; sure; why not? Reykjavik seems fun.
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