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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morfinyon View Post
    That's true in a vacuum but you ignore the larger context of this. First of all the types of jobs and industries cheap imported workers will work in are usually not very desirable to the general population in that country. I don't really know many Germans who work in construction or similar hard and low-paying jobs like that.

    So let's look at what happens when you have cheap imported workers into a country. A decently large part of the population will be temporarily put out of work since they can't or don't want to compete with these super cheap workers. The industries they used to work in will be saturated and there is no more need for them in those industries. However, capitalists will find new ways to make use of this workforce since they always want to make more profits. So they'll create new industries and jobs where these now unemployed people can work in. Alternatively they'll go into the service industry and generally have nicer jobs.

    What is harming low wage workers isn't imported workers but rather the fact that capital always keeps centralising and there is an ever-growing massive amount of dead capital in the hands of rich capitalists. Basically the economy is being drained and only a small fraction of what goes into the hands of the capitalists will flow back into the market.


    All that said, no I don't. I care about the global proletariat.
    Exactly.

    But dont expect to read about that anyplace. Certainly not its critical coverage.

    During the recent, and ongoing, UK conservative austerity measures huge portions of money which circulated within the social spending budgets were cut, now that money has gone to the private off shore savings accounts of a few UK fortune five hundred families, maybe one family will be a fractionally ahead of another in an elite magazine's poll next year, but it effectively means that money is not circulating in the economy because its being saved. Permanently. Its not being spent.

    I'll be interested to see if all the talk about a post-brexit britain being one in which the UK conservatives are prepared to contemplate the creation and support of public ownership in utilities or industry will materialise, I'm skeptical, highly, highly skeptical, but I'm also aware that the best deconstructions of conservative support of public ownership in the past were able to demonstrate how it was used to create layers, upon layers of management to afford elite graduates with status and money, the city and privatisation in turn was used that way by the neo-liberal thatcherites, now that this is less of an option and the EU and other bureaucracies will not be an opition they could decided to revive that idea.

    The alternative would be a more fuedal arrangement with lots and lots of destitution, people locked out from consumer markets and dependency of a lucky few upon wealthy families, which is actually popular with a lot of old school UK conservatives too and the UK conservative party has yet to deal with those militant tendencies in the way that labour and others did in the eighties.

    The blaming the immigrants game is very old, it used to be vagrants who were demonised, in the UK prior to the creation of a single national welfare state there was an equivalent antagonistic struggle between regions or parishes and vagrancy was the percursor to immigration with people travelling around the country looking for work. It always amused me that the story in First Blood could have been set in England at the time of the industrial revolution/post-Napoleonic wars.

  2. #22
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I think that would be the least of our problems.

    I presume that you place "food production methods" under capitalism ?

    Actually I disagree with last line. When two broke people do trade someone is very likely to be severly damaged.
    Because once you lose the balance it is impossible to get back, what is likely to happen in "free trade".
    My theory is that food production isnt so much the issue at all. Nearly all the food from the supermarket is produced by a handful of big mega companies like Nestle and so on. Its not really the case that all the small local brands that are sold still exist. I dont want to know what shit they already sell us.
    I think the main problem TTIP doesnt work is that with american laws, companies will be able to sue the government. Our companies want that but our government doesnt.

    Furthermore I have the feeling that lawsuiting is trending atm. America sues Volkswagen, Europe wanted to sue Apple, America tries to sue the Deutsche Bank thats kinda strange since I am believing those big companies are shitting on the laws for years. But since a few years the countries actually want to gain money from it. I dont know if thats out of a stroke of righteousness or brokeness.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I think that would be the least of our problems.

    I presume that you place "food production methods" under capitalism ?

    Actually I disagree with last line. When two broke people do trade someone is very likely to be severly damaged.
    Because once you lose the balance it is impossible to get back, what is likely to happen in "free trade".
    Some of the food production regulations is a big sticking point for the TTIP, or any of these latest rounds of neo-liberal negotiations, because the US permits a number of practices in the production of food, like those burgers, which the EU is not a fan of, there's stuff in US food which in the EU would be classified as "plastics" for instance because it does not degrade, decay and disappear in land fill as it ought.

    This was all being talked about, and going unreported, at the time of the scandal about horse meat adulterating the beef production food chain the France and the UK not too long ago (at the same time fast food nation came out and featured an illegal migrant worker losing a leg in a meat plant and his flesh passing into the US fast food food chain, that movie is based on a factual, researched book) and there were plenty of conspiracy theorists at the time suggesting it was an exercise in testing public reactivity to that sort of news.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    My theory is that food production isnt so much the issue at all. Nearly all the food from the supermarket is produced by a handful of big mega companies like Nestle and so on. Its not really the case that all the small local brands that are sold still exist. I dont want to know what shit they already sell us.
    I think the main problem TTIP doesnt work is that with american laws, companies will be able to sue the government. Our companies want that but our government doesnt.

    Furthermore I have the feeling that lawsuiting is trending atm. America sues Volkswagen, Europe wanted to sue Apple, America tries to sue the Deutsche Bank thats kinda strange since I am believing those big companies are shitting on the laws for years. But since a few years the countries actually want to gain money from it. I dont know if thats out of a stroke of righteousness or brokeness.
    I totally believe that its brokeness, I think that from even before Brexit the trend was in that direction and less real profit was being made but shortfalls in revenues were being made up through litigation or manipulation of the political system, its part of the reason why a major UK finanical pundit, I cant recall who, said that Marx's Capital was the most popular book being read by investors or shareholders in the know, basically because it was class struggle and not market forces which was generating any money what so ever.

    Now a historic opportunity was lost, in the UK at least, when the bailout happened because they could easily have decided that part or completely owned banks or otherwise taxpayer dependent banks, would be subject to the same pay and conditions as the average public sector workers, ie pay freezes etc. at least until such times as those banks were able to perform independent of subsidy or public ownership, and maybe, just maybe, a labour government would have held them to account like that, instead the conservatives won a further election and the banks who were failing were piloted by board rooms who awarded themselves record bonuses and pay settlements precisely because they had secured tax dependency status.

  5. #25
    surgical penis klinik Typh0n's Avatar
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    I think Europe is quiet complicated since you have three main layers of government, EU government(for most countries), national (federeal or central) government, and local government. On the one hand the EU helps preserve peace between nations, on the other, it only serves the interests of a few beaurocrats. I think the EU feels that individual nations cannot be trusted on their own since they don't see the forest (Europe) for the trees (their interests) so they need to be monitored. Whether or not this is true, I'm also not for nationalism. Nationalism wants strong central government to rule over its citizens, and they are usually xenophobic; I want to be able to circulate more or less freely between countries, and I like that in the EU I can do it wihtout a passport and without having to change money. Also, do we wanna go back to Hitler and Mussolini? Haven't we learned our lesson?

    I see a potential solution in weakening EU governments and national governments, and giving more power to local governments. This would be done to give more power to local peoples rather than having some big guys at the top deciding for those people. Of course there would still be EU and national government, but they would be smaller.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Morfinyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    I don't know how you can say that definitively. Doesn't it really depend on wages? I mean being a garbage man/sanitation worker isn't cushy work but people would still voluntarily apply for the job if the wages are high enough to compensate the 'dirty work.' Incidentally I don't see very many feminists clamoring to have more women in working in waste disposal but that's neither here or there and another topic altogether.
    You mentioned supply/demand before but in this instance you completely ignore it? If you have an extremely large pool of workers who all compete for the same job then you're going to have lower wages.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    If you import cheap labor to do these jobs it drives down the wages of those jobs which contributes to the lack of incentive among natives to take the work.
    Alright so here you mention this and contradict your first argument completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    I don't see what binds the capitalists to the native workers though especially if it's so easy to just hire cheaper labor. It's true that most of the corporate structures always seek to maximize profits as a primary goal but that just means they will look at where they can hire the cheapest labor force. Do you think the supply of cheap labor from the third world or poorer parts of Europe will 'run out?' I don't think so. If cheap labor reaches saturation in Europe then European corporations will simply export their factories to countries with shitty labor laws and a destitute population willing to work anywhere. Multinationals do this already which is why in America many of the former manufacturing towns and cities are empty rust bins today. What happens is this, the native workers find it increasingly tough to find jobs and they demand the government pay their way through benefits programs and they become net consumers of welfare instead of contributors which drains the country's resources even more.
    They are not bound to native workers. It's just that they have a lot of native workers at their disposal so why wouldn't they utilise those as well? As their industries grow and develop they need skilled workers and administrative workers. On top of that there is the service industries. As long as there are workers they'll find a way to utilise them and turn them into profit (with some limitations).
    Just look at what happened when Germany imported millions of Turkish workers. An economic boom that turned Germany into one of the greatest economic powers in the world. They became an imperialist power house and made sure that they are one of the countries where capital is centralising in. Obviously the effects of that centralisation and capital drain are noticeable here as well (growing dispairity between the rich and the poor and sinking wages) but it's not nearly as bad as in the rest of Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    Sorry but in today's reality native unskilled or low skilled labor have to compete globally with unskilled/low skilled labor that will work for less and this have direct consequences. The capital is still being invested and is still moving around or else here would be no work for native and immigrant workers alike. Capital flows towards ventures that yield the highest profit margins (within the law if there is a competent legal structure).
    You outlined here one of the antagonisms within Capitalism. Capitalists want to maximise their profits and gain as much capital as possible but for that they also have to invest some of that capital. However, they will only invest capital in ways that it will come back to them at an increased rate. Those capitalists that fail to do that will go bankrupt and their capital will be consumed by other, more successful capitalists.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    I thought so and I see how it shapes your views. Your country is relatively wealthy and can potentially be great for the German people if enough German people care about the future of their own country and nation.
    Even though we are one of the strongest economic powers in the world the workers' real wages have been sinking throughout the past 20 years or so. The same trend can be seen in the United States btw. Massive increase in productivity and nominal wages but stagnating real wages:



    With the brexit Germany has pretty much conquered all of Europe and they'll keep draining the rest of the EU until a revolution happens.
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  7. #27
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Now a historic opportunity was lost, in the UK at least, when the bailout happened because they could easily have decided that part or completely owned banks or otherwise taxpayer dependent banks, would be subject to the same pay and conditions as the average public sector workers, ie pay freezes etc. at least until such times as those banks were able to perform independent of subsidy or public ownership, and maybe, just maybe, a labour government would have held them to account like that, instead the conservatives won a further election and the banks who were failing were piloted by board rooms who awarded themselves record bonuses and pay settlements precisely because they had secured tax dependency status.
    I see.
    I generally am very concerned regarding GB. Not that I want to imply, they cant live without the EU, but having that history of upper class people prone to financial shortcuts, I hope it doesnt turn into a lawfree zone in the long run.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I see.
    I generally am very concerned regarding GB. Not that I want to imply, they cant live without the EU, but having that history of upper class people prone to financial shortcuts, I hope it doesnt turn into a lawfree zone in the long run.
    The way things are going I've even begun to wonder if the entire country has been seized by the Free State project or something, its been drinking the far, far right libertarian kool aid for a long, long time now.

  9. #29
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Since when do Americans take intrest in Europe ? I dont give this thread a week
    I'm interested in Europe and this thread, I thought it was a good idea when I saw it posted. It's not like I enjoy that then entire world can see everything happening with our dumpster fire of an election so let's discuss something and somewhere else.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  10. #30
    surgical penis klinik Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The way things are going I've even begun to wonder if the entire country has been seized by the Free State project or something, its been drinking the far, far right libertarian kool aid for a long, long time now.
    Are you trying to say UKIP is libertarian?

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