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  1. #11
    Senior Member Morfinyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephano View Post
    I think we need to go back to renationalization. The EU developed from an economic community into a unitary state in the last decades, which I eye with suspicion, given that the public has little to no influence on the appointment of the EU commission and council.
    The continuation of the single market and visa-free travel is important to me, at least in the core EU countries.
    One of the reasons Brexit happened is due to an influx of low-wage workers from Poland and other EU countries. If freedom of establishment within the EU destabilizes the job market in certain countries then we're definitely in need of an overhaul.
    The member states should be able to impose restrictions on migration within the EU.

    I disagree with every single conclusion you come to in this.
    First of all going back to renationalisation is something that'll never happen and also won't improve anything on its' own. You'd just see more conflict potential without a common European house.

    The single European market is perhaps the worst thing to come out of the EU. It's what's destroying the poorer European countries currently as they cannot compete with the economic powerhouses that are Germany and France.

    The reason Brexit happened is definitely not the influx of low-wage workers from Poland. This is completely absurd because that influx is the best thing that could happen to them. Why would you not want cheap workers who do the shittier jobs for you? If I were a hardcore nationalist and cared about my country the most I'd want lots of migrant workers from poorer European countries doing hard labor for low wages. The reason the Brexit happened was a mixture of fear-mongering, nationalism and people not realising that the neoliberal agenda of the EU will simply get replaced by a neoliberal agenda of the UK government. In the end not much will change for them since they will still be affected by the massive bureaucracy and all the regulations. Their currency is dropping like crazy though.

    I generally agree that member states should have a right to self-determination but we need to overcome nationalism and racism in the EU and the working classes in all of Europe need to grow together and show some international solidarity. Only then can we actually improve Europe as a whole.
    meow~

  2. #12
    Privileged Sh!tlord ZNP-TBA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morfinyon View Post
    Why would you not want cheap workers who do the shittier jobs for you?
    Cheap imported workers, in general, drive down overall wages of workers and workers in industries they are connected to. It is the predictable result of supply and demand curves. This causes job loss and/or stagnation for the poorest among your citizens. It's not hugely different in the U.S. as low wage immigrants (many of them illegal) pose a tougher jobs challenge for the poorest among our citizens, many of them African-Americans. Several large corporations love low wage immigrants for their bottom line but it's often the struggling working class that pays the price.
    If I were a hardcore nationalist and cared about my country the most I'd want lots of migrant workers from poorer European countries doing hard labor for low wages.
    Do you actually care about your country?

  3. #13
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Germany did pretty well and I think the thinking was members would follow its example, I think that those other global competitors are constantly working to cause the EU's collapse is overlooked more.
    I agree that this factor exists but I don't see it as overlooked. Rejection of many American values is common, Russia is seen as threat on daily basis and "made in China" is well defined problem as well.
    We know that we can't fully truth them in political sense.


    Yes, Germany did pretty well but the truth is that it was forced to do that. While most countries at the east did not go through nearly as rigid testing as Germany. I can see this as my own country was joining the union. Hating minorities was a problem but corruption and unfunctionality of the system is something that no one really cared about. (my local Mayor pilled up about 170 affairs over 20 years and did not have a trial for single one) Also we had to join the union just so that we can have our first elections where you vote for actual people instead of parties that assign someone to the position. The position where they do whatever they want and you can't even contact them, so they rule the country and answer basicly to no one. What is technically just one step away from pure and open dictatorship. Therefore when half of the union (east and south) have these kinds of problems and about quarter of the population is not even used to life in a democracy then this is a serious structural problem. (in my opinion)


    However in my local case things started to move from starting point as new generation(s) are comming. Therefore this will hopefully smoother out things on the long run.

  4. #14
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    Cheap imported workers, in general, drive down overall wages of workers and workers in industries they are connected to. It is the predictable result of supply and demand curves. This causes job loss and/or stagnation for the poorest among your citizens. It's not hugely different in the U.S. as low wage immigrants (many of them illegal) pose a tougher jobs challenge for the poorest among our citizens, many of them African-Americans. Several large corporations love low wage immigrants for their bottom line but it's often the struggling working class that pays the price.


    Do you actually care about your country?

    To some degree he is right, since in Europe this process works somewhat differently.


    1. In Europe immigrants from other european countries often don't stay in their new country for life. What is often the case in America.

    2. Birth rates in Europe are much lower, therefore the country that accepts more people will smooth it's demography and therefore economic problems. While the country of origin will suffer greatly and sink to bankruptcy, since there is not enough people of various professions left to drive economy. Because rich countries take everything they need. (this is perhaps number one problem in Europe today)
    Likes SearchingforPeace liked this post

  5. #15
    Senior Member Morfinyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    Cheap imported workers, in general, drive down overall wages of workers and workers in industries they are connected to. It is the predictable result of supply and demand curves. This causes job loss and/or stagnation for the poorest among your citizens. It's not hugely different in the U.S. as low wage immigrants (many of them illegal) pose a tougher jobs challenge for the poorest among our citizens, many of them African-Americans. Several large corporations love low wage immigrants for their bottom line but it's often the struggling working class that pays the price.
    That's true in a vacuum but you ignore the larger context of this. First of all the types of jobs and industries cheap imported workers will work in are usually not very desirable to the general population in that country. I don't really know many Germans who work in construction or similar hard and low-paying jobs like that.

    So let's look at what happens when you have cheap imported workers into a country. A decently large part of the population will be temporarily put out of work since they can't or don't want to compete with these super cheap workers. The industries they used to work in will be saturated and there is no more need for them in those industries. However, capitalists will find new ways to make use of this workforce since they always want to make more profits. So they'll create new industries and jobs where these now unemployed people can work in. Alternatively they'll go into the service industry and generally have nicer jobs.

    What is harming low wage workers isn't imported workers but rather the fact that capital always keeps centralising and there is an ever-growing massive amount of dead capital in the hands of rich capitalists. Basically the economy is being drained and only a small fraction of what goes into the hands of the capitalists will flow back into the market.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    Do you actually care about your country?
    All that said, no I don't. I care about the global proletariat.
    meow~
    Likes Survive & Stay Free liked this post

  6. #16
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    What do you guys think about the whole Spain election situation? Especially considering it's economy is growing pretty well at the moment.

    Is it just because it does not have to obey EU deficit rules?

    I know that they had a complete mess on political scene but I don't know the detail and how that ended. To be honest I prefer growth in Spain to alternative, Europe already has too many "sick" countries. Problems in France and its politics came to be exactly becuse it's main trade partners imploded (Spain and Italy)


    But I am curious why they don't have to obey the deficit rule ?

  7. #17
    Privileged Sh!tlord ZNP-TBA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morfinyon View Post
    First of all the types of jobs and industries cheap imported workers will work in are usually not very desirable to the general population in that country.
    I don't know how you can say that definitively. Doesn't it really depend on wages? I mean being a garbage man/sanitation worker isn't cushy work but people would still voluntarily apply for the job if the wages are high enough to compensate the 'dirty work.' Incidentally I don't see very many feminists clamoring to have more women in working in waste disposal but that's neither here or there and another topic altogether.

    If you import cheap labor to do these jobs it drives down the wages of those jobs which contributes to the lack of incentive among natives to take the work.

    So let's look at what happens when you have cheap imported workers into a country. A decently large part of the population will be temporarily put out of work since they can't or don't want to compete with these super cheap workers. The industries they used to work in will be saturated and there is no more need for them in those industries. However, capitalists will find new ways to make use of this workforce since they always want to make more profits. So they'll create new industries and jobs where these now unemployed people can work in. Alternatively they'll go into the service industry and generally have nicer jobs.
    I don't see what binds the capitalists to the native workers though especially if it's so easy to just hire cheaper labor. It's true that most of the corporate structures always seek to maximize profits as a primary goal but that just means they will look at where they can hire the cheapest labor force. Do you think the supply of cheap labor from the third world or poorer parts of Europe will 'run out?' I don't think so. If cheap labor reaches saturation in Europe then European corporations will simply export their factories to countries with shitty labor laws and a destitute population willing to work anywhere. Multinationals do this already which is why in America many of the former manufacturing towns and cities are empty rust bins today. What happens is this, the native workers find it increasingly tough to find jobs and they demand the government pay their way through benefits programs and they become net consumers of welfare instead of contributors which drains the country's resources even more.

    What is harming low wage workers isn't imported workers but rather the fact that capital always keeps centralising and there is an ever-growing massive amount of dead capital in the hands of rich capitalists. Basically the economy is being drained and only a small fraction of what goes into the hands of the capitalists will flow back into the market.
    Sorry but in today's reality native unskilled or low skilled labor have to compete globally with unskilled/low skilled labor that will work for less and this have direct consequences. The capital is still being invested and is still moving around or else here would be no work for native and immigrant workers alike. Capital flows towards ventures that yield the highest profit margins (within the law if there is a competent legal structure).


    All that said, no I don't. I care about the global proletariat.
    I thought so and I see how it shapes your views. Your country is relatively wealthy and can potentially be great for the German people if enough German people care about the future of their own country and nation.

  8. #18
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    Are we all American though?
    Yes, except for some north korean infiltrators I wouldnt mention !

    Quote Originally Posted by Morfinyon View Post
    I disagree with every single conclusion you come to in this.
    First of all going back to renationalisation is something that'll never happen and also won't improve anything on its' own. You'd just see more conflict potential without a common European house.

    The single European market is perhaps the worst thing to come out of the EU. It's what's destroying the poorer European countries currently as they cannot compete with the economic powerhouses that are Germany and France.

    The reason Brexit happened is definitely not the influx of low-wage workers from Poland. This is completely absurd because that influx is the best thing that could happen to them. Why would you not want cheap workers who do the shittier jobs for you? If I were a hardcore nationalist and cared about my country the most I'd want lots of migrant workers from poorer European countries doing hard labor for low wages. The reason the Brexit happened was a mixture of fear-mongering, nationalism and people not realising that the neoliberal agenda of the EU will simply get replaced by a neoliberal agenda of the UK government. In the end not much will change for them since they will still be affected by the massive bureaucracy and all the regulations. Their currency is dropping like crazy though.

    I generally agree that member states should have a right to self-determination but we need to overcome nationalism and racism in the EU and the working classes in all of Europe need to grow together and show some international solidarity. Only then can we actually improve Europe as a whole.
    ^^ what he said. It might not work but its an idea worth living for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    ...Rejection of many American values is common...
    What ? I love BigMacs ! Ok I disagree with them on some small things:

    - capitalism
    - nuclear energy
    - denial of climate change
    - Trump
    - Football
    - Manliness
    - the cancellation of TV series I like
    - the imperial measurement system

    I wonder, if you were really to implement TTIP. Would we go with imperial or metric ?

    The good thing is having both America and Europe talking about working together is a sign that both are pretty broke. And broke people always work the best together thats a good soil for peace.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I agree that this factor exists but I don't see it as overlooked. Rejection of many American values is common, Russia is seen as threat on daily basis and "made in China" is well defined problem as well.
    We know that we can't fully truth them in political sense.


    Yes, Germany did pretty well but the truth is that it was forced to do that. While most countries at the east did not go through nearly as rigid testing as Germany. I can see this as my own country was joining the union. Hating minorities was a problem but corruption and unfunctionality of the system is something that no one really cared about. (my local Mayor pilled up about 170 affairs over 20 years and did not have a trial for single one) Also we had to join the union just so that we can have our first elections where you vote for actual people instead of parties that assign someone to the position. The position where they do whatever they want and you can't even contact them, so they rule the country and answer basicly to no one. What is technically just one step away from pure and open dictatorship. Therefore when half of the union (east and south) have these kinds of problems and about quarter of the population is not even used to life in a democracy then this is a serious structural problem. (in my opinion)


    However in my local case things started to move from starting point as new generation(s) are comming. Therefore this will hopefully smoother out things on the long run.
    I agree with you that demographic shifts are the most important thing in political change right now, whether the new generation sees themselves of subverting the old or not, all new and newer generations have in some way been socialised by social media and the internet, which can be a seriously double edged sword as that can result in what I regard as normative psychopathy or the popularity of racism and other conspiracy theory but it general does not lend itself to continuity within older authoritarian regimes.

    I am rethinking the issues to do with the membership of post-communist states even reading this thread, so thanks for that, perhaps I did not properly consider the obsticles to their membership giving that I wanted them as members and did not like the fortress/developed versus developing world EU idea.

    Beyond the Russia sabre rattling and the Chinese market competition I think that the UK, US, India even, and other states would all like to see the EU fail and collapse, at the very least historically the European mainland is were the big battles have been fought permitting, at least in the case of the US, superpowers to ensure the direct fighting happens elsewhere, outside their borders, the EU has afforded a great deal of orderly exchange and development, the world is better as a consequence, but that stability, innovation, uplift of all social classes and groups is perceived as a bad thing by the old guard of malthusian capitalists and conservatives who want scarcity, want struggle, want war all as means of social control or population control.

  10. #20
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post

    What ? I love BigMacs ! Ok I disagree with them on some small things:

    - capitalism
    - nuclear energy
    - denial of climate change
    - Trump
    - Football
    - Manliness
    - the cancellation of TV series I like
    - the imperial measurement system

    I wonder, if you were really to implement TTIP. Would we go with imperial or metric ?

    The good thing is having both America and Europe talking about working together is a sign that both are pretty broke. And broke people always work the best together thats a good soil for peace.

    I think that would be the least of our problems.

    I presume that you place "food production methods" under capitalism ?

    Actually I disagree with last line. When two broke people do trade someone is very likely to be severly damaged.
    Because once you lose the balance it is impossible to get back, what is likely to happen in "free trade".

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