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  • I am European and I am for it

    6 24.00%
  • I am European and I am against

    6 24.00%
  • I am not European and I am for it

    1 4.00%
  • I am not European and I am against it

    12 48.00%
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  1. #31
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I know I am late with this reply but my real life was more important.

    Argument of Lateralus stands if you don't think outside the box. I admit that I could be wrong but I could be also right.


    In the US there is about 3 children per family on average in Europe it is about 1.5. That means that Europe has next generation it is just that it is smaller then the last one.


    So that means that US will have to create jobs for all those people while Europe will be getting older. But there is a factor of modern technology here.
    High-tech industry actually needs small amount of people since machines are building machines that create goods.
    Which could probably have better quality and be produced faster.
    But USA will not be able to do substitution fully because people need those jobs.


    Only things you need in modern industry is few guys to repair the system and few people to do the paper work.
    I think that all of us can agree that in the future there will be some problems with the amount of resources. So not having to many children could be advantage in the end.


    Because of this EU could get large advantage over the USA which will need to employ people, build new houses for them, new infrastructure to support them, and produce more of everything for those new people.
    Also there are more things that are based on cultural and social differences.
    European societies function on the different way, for example there is a huge population in the USA that thinks that government should stay away from many things while in Europe it is normal that government gives more help to economy.
    .

    One more thing is that Europeans are not fat as people in the US. Once all those people who lived in fast food culture get older they will have huge health problems and if a lot of people have this problem entire society has a problem.

    Level of idiocracy is much lower in Europe then in US what in the end means that society is much stabile from the inside.


    There is no prison culture so we save a lot of resources when it comes to justice system.
    USA has about 750 prisoners on 100 000 people while European average is about 100-130.
    If you ask me that is because of bad education (by this I mean too narrow point of view), prison culture and the fact that people can't find job.
    What is again linked to having too many children.



    There is also war of the ideas which US is losing for years.
    By this I mean scientific level.


    In the USA there are strong anti-science agenda in government and general public. It doesn't need to be anti-science, lack of interests or the most basic knowledge can be equally deadly.

    Many pro-something activists always celebrate when they manage to stop some experiment or some controversial law.
    But what really happens is that the experiment is done two months later in Europe so the Europe is doing the progress in the scientific area.
    As researching are going forward the experiments are going more are more controversial and less likely to supported by US public. But there is a catch, many of that experiments are vital for the advance of medicine. The scenario is taking USA in difficult position because it could become totally depended upon USE because no one did the progress and if it happens that the relations become hostile it could happen that USA will stay without modern medical care.
    Good medicine can make huge difference in many ways. For example it is not the same if your large old population is healthy or sick.


    In the end some of that means that some disease of 21 century could wipe out large amount of USA population because there is not proper health care. Not to mention the possibility of the bio attack (maybe even from Europe)
    It is not impossible that there will be hostile atmosphere between the two because of how public thinks/acts and the divide of Religion/Science.



    For example I can even take my future profession as one example of this.

    I am geology student, from what I know my colleague on the south of USA and mid-west can't learn what I can.
    That is because modern geology is in direct collision with the Bible.

    The point of this little story is that if USA does not start to work on progressive thinking it will find itself in serious problems.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Argument of Lateralus stands if you don't think outside the box. I admit that I could be wrong but I could be also right.
    There is a problem, but I was facetiously exaggerating the magnitude. I thought that was obvious, but whatever.

    In the US there is about 3 children per family on average in Europe it is about 1.5. That means that Europe has next generation it is just that it is smaller then the last one.


    So that means that US will have to create jobs for all those people while Europe will be getting older. But there is a factor of modern technology here.
    High-tech industry actually needs small amount of people since machines are building machines that create goods.
    Which could probably have better quality and be produced faster.
    But USA will not be able to do substitution fully because people need those jobs.
    I just shake my head at the statement in bold. You do realize that economies scale, right? Europe's problem is a demographic problem (brought on by culture), not a population problem. Because there are so many social programs in Europe, workers are required to support the oldies. As the number of workers falls, and the number oldies rises, the burden on the workers increases. That's the problem. How much burden can they take? How much will they take?

    Only things you need in modern industry is few guys to repair the system and few people to do the paper work.
    I don't think you thought this through.

    I think that all of us can agree that in the future there will be some problems with the amount of resources. So not having to many children could be advantage in the end.
    Define problem.

    Because of this EU could get large advantage over the USA which will need to employ people, build new houses for them, new infrastructure to support them, and produce more of everything for those new people.
    Also there are more things that are based on cultural and social differences.
    European societies function on the different way, for example there is a huge population in the USA that thinks that government should stay away from many things while in Europe it is normal that government gives more help to economy.

    One more thing is that Europeans are not fat as people in the US. Once all those people who lived in fast food culture get older they will have huge health problems and if a lot of people have this problem entire society has a problem.
    I disagree with your premises, since they are not proven. I also disagree with your conclusions based on those premises. Part of the problem for Europe is that people live so long.

    Level of idiocracy is much lower in Europe then in US what in the end means that society is much stabile from the inside.
    Another premise that I don't believe to be true (there are lots of stupid people everywhere). However, I don't think either of us can prove our point, either way.

    There is no prison culture so we save a lot of resources when it comes to justice system.
    USA has about 750 prisoners on 100 000 people while European average is about 100-130.
    If you ask me that is because of bad education (by this I mean too narrow point of view), prison culture and the fact that people can't find job.
    What is again linked to having too many children.
    You're correct that there's a prison culture, but you're wrong on the source of the problem. The War on Drugs is a huge problem related to this issue.

    There is also war of the ideas which US is losing for years.
    By this I mean scientific level.

    In the USA there are strong anti-science agenda in government and general public. It doesn't need to be anti-science, lack of interests or the most basic knowledge can be equally deadly.
    What are you talking about? Where do you get this information?

    Many pro-something activists always celebrate when they manage to stop some experiment or some controversial law.
    But what really happens is that the experiment is done two months later in Europe so the Europe is doing the progress in the scientific area.
    As researching are going forward the experiments are going more are more controversial and less likely to supported by US public. But there is a catch, many of that experiments are vital for the advance of medicine. The scenario is taking USA in difficult position because it could become totally depended upon USE because no one did the progress and if it happens that the relations become hostile it could happen that USA will stay without modern medical care.
    You're going to have to give specific here, because I don't think this is the case.

    Good medicine can make huge difference in many ways. For example it is not the same if your large old population is healthy or sick.

    In the end some of that means that some disease of 21 century could wipe out large amount of USA population because there is not proper health care. Not to mention the possibility of the bio attack (maybe even from Europe)
    It is not impossible that there will be hostile atmosphere between the two because of how public thinks/acts and the divide of Religion/Science.
    Where do you get your information on the US?

    For example I can even take my future profession as one example of this.

    I am geology student, from what I know my colleague on the south of USA and mid-west can't learn what I can.
    That is because modern geology is in direct collision with the Bible.


    The point of this little story is that if USA does not start to work on progressive thinking it will find itself in serious problems.
    LOL, I think the information you have on the US is very flawed.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #33
    Sniffles
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    Antisocial, I've been meaning to get back to this thread for some time, because there are more than enough issues raised that need a proper response.

    I will tell you right now that most of your case for the EU is rather weak when you scratch the surface. Concerning birth-rates and economics: you assume that technology will help off-set the imbalance between Europe and America. Of course you fail to take into account that older people are generally more resistant to newer technologies than younger people.

    So if Europe's population becomes more older, then chances are it's lead in technology will suffer a bit. Already there's more skepticism towards technology in Europe than in America.

    I will agree with the general argument that Europe is not breeding itself out of existence. It's going through population decline, but not extinction. Birth-rates are dropping all over the world, even in Islamic countries. I know Iran's birth-rate is around 1.2 at the moment.

    Your understandings of post-industrial economics is rather flawed too. Hopefully I'll be able to get into more details about this.

    One more thing is that Europeans are not fat as people in the US.
    Wrong!
    CNN.com - Europe's growing waistline - Jun. 23, 2003

    Many parts of Europe have higher obesity rates than America. Already the average European is overweight and this is causing much concern among health officials throughout the EU.

    Level of idiocracy is much lower in Europe then in US what in the end means that society is much stabile from the inside.
    Please explain this, especially since America still has one of the top university education systems in the world.

    What is again linked to having too many children.
    You seem to adhere to a general Malthusian perspective.


    In the USA there are strong anti-science agenda in government and general public. It doesn't need to be anti-science, lack of interests or the most basic knowledge can be equally deadly.
    Again, what exactly are you talking about?

    Not to mention the possibility of the bio attack (maybe even from Europe)
    And then Europe would suffer a nuclear retaliation from the US, not least of which because Europe depends considerably upon American weapons systems for defense.

    That is because modern geology is in direct collision with the Bible.
    No it isn't. I would like to see you demonstrate this.

    The point of this little story is that if USA does not start to work on progressive thinking it will find itself in serious problems.
    The US is certainly going to face serious problems in the future. However, the EU's problems are just as bad if not worse in many cases. So I would advise the EU to get off its high horse.

  4. #34
    Sniffles
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    Moving along. Antisocial I would sincerely like to hear your take on this:

    "The historical record also makes clear that even when states are comfortable enough with each other to allow high levels of economic interdependence to emerge, the resulting ties are no guarantor of lasting harmony. International communities knit together by their intergrated economies can unravel with surprising speed. Consider Europe during the decade prior to World War I. Trade and investment inside Europe were, in relation to the size of national economies, greater one hundred years ago than they are today. Germant was Britain's second-most-important trading partner (after the United States), and Britain was the top market for German exports. Lloyds of London was a leading insurer of the German ships that the Royal Navy would seek to sink if the two countries were to find themselves at war. Borders in the early 1900s were permeable. Europeans moved freely from country to country, without passports and without having to bother with border controls.

    Such intense levels of interdependence, however, did not avert Europe's rapid descent into World War I.
    Germany's bid for primacy and the geopolitical competition that followed had little trouble overwhelming the mutual interests resulting from economic integration. If economic interdependence could not save Europe from war in 1914, there is no compelling reason to be confident that globalization would do any better at preserving a stable peace today."
    --Charles Kupchan, The End of the American Era: U.S. Foreign Policy and the Geopolitics of the Twenty-first Century pg.103

    So in other words, the situation we're seeing now in Europe is not new. If anything, it's a back to the future situation.

    According to your argument, the only real significant difference now is that the EU has a common currency, parliament, language supposedly(English). Do you really think that will all matter?

    A common currency, parliament, and even language did not stop the Soviet Union from imploding. Nor did it help Yugoslavia. Nor did it stop the Austro-Hungarian Empire from breaking apart. Nor did it stop the American Civil War from occuring.


    This seem like a paradox but it is not, beacuse in the case when Europe is build of tiny peaces all major decisions are made in Washington or Moscow.
    And so instead they're ruled by bureaucrats in Brussels, not a fair trade.

    History speak for itself.
    Only 1945-1990 history does. Before then(1870-1945) the major threat was Europe dominated by Germany. There's still concerns about that today, of an EU dominated by Germany.

    Although Russia has reasserted herself as a major power, it's nowhere near capable of dominating Europe completely. The only time Russia ever achieved that was after the Napoleonic Wars. That lasted untill its defeat by England and France in the Crimean War(1850s).

    I don't see why someone would say EU can't function as one nation.
    For starters, the EU is not a nation. At best it's a multinational association or federation.

    I say that because EU is functioning as one body already.
    Not really. There's already much concern about how larger members will essentially dominate the agenda for the EU, leaving smaller members at their mercy. This will certainly play a role in causing deep divisions within the EU.

    And as we speak same language it is unavoidable that national pride starts to lose itself with time. You can already see the process at work.
    History saids otherwise. The Irish didn't loose their identity when they started speaking English. Nor did this happen with Ukrainians speaking Russian. Nor did African nations loose their sense of identity by speaking English, French, Dutch, etc. Nor did India by speaking English also(and English remained the official language of India untill the 1960s).

    If anything, it just means people express their identities in the new language. Yet throughout Europe there's been a considerable resurgence in the study of local languages and dialects as a way of expressing ones identity. Gaelic is making a comeback in Ireland for example.

    The irony of course being that the more different peoples become alike, there's often a greater obsession with what are called "small differences". This has been especially true with Europe when we look at the historical record.

    Nationalism as we know it began in Europe at a time when European civilization was becoming more uniform. Just listen to these words of Jean-Jacques Rousseau from 1772:

    "Today, no matter what people may say, there are no longer any Frenchmen, Germans, Spaniards, or even Englishmen; there are only Europeans. All have the same tastes, the same passions, the same manners, for no one has been shaped along national lines by peculiar institutions. All, in the same circumstances, will do the same things; all will call themselves unselfish, and be rascals; all will talk of the public welfare, and think only of themselves; all will praise moderation, and wish to be as rich as Croesus. They have no ambition but for luxury, they have no passion but for gold; sure that money will buy them all their hearts desire, they all are ready to sell themselves to the first bidder. What do they care what master they obey, under the laws of what state they live? Provided they can find money to steal and women to corrupt, they feel at home in any country."
    - Considerations on the Government of Poland

    Those words could easily have been written today, as is proven by your own posts in this thread.

    The more uniform European civilization became, the more assertive(and sadly violent) nationalism became. As my one citation above showed, around the time of WWI there were no significant cultural differences between the European nations that would war with each other. This is even true with the recent conflicts in the Balkans, considering that Serbs and Croats both speak the same language.

    Nationalism is on the rise in much of Europe, largely as a reaction to the EU. Not just nationalism, but even subnationalism. There's been a growth in what many have termed "Ethnoregionalist" sentiments in many parts of Europe. The recent granting of Catalonia autonomy is just one example of this. We're also seeing this in Italy and Belgium.

    So the basic argument you've presented here doesn't really hold up when one examines the facts.

    Plus constitution and army are on the way.
    The Constitution has been defeated in referendum after referendum; which is a sign that Europeans are having discontented feelings towards the EU.

    You are against because it is wrong to destroy so many nations or you are afraid that block will become too strong or you just don't like Europe?
    I'm against it because yes I'm against the destruction of particular cultural identities and the fact that the EU is built upon extremely flawed and unstable foundations, even in regards to Socio-political philosophy.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The irony of course being that the more different peoples become alike, there's often a greater obsession with what are called "small differences". This has been especially true with Europe when we look at the historical record.

    Nationalism as we know it began in Europe at a time when European civilization was becoming more uniform. Just listen to these words of Jean-Jacques Rousseau from 1772:

    "Today, no matter what people may say, there are no longer any Frenchmen, Germans, Spaniards, or even Englishmen; there are only Europeans. All have the same tastes, the same passions, the same manners, for no one has been shaped along national lines by peculiar institutions. All, in the same circumstances, will do the same things; all will call themselves unselfish, and be rascals; all will talk of the public welfare, and think only of themselves; all will praise moderation, and wish to be as rich as Croesus. They have no ambition but for luxury, they have no passion but for gold; sure that money will buy them all their hearts desire, they all are ready to sell themselves to the first bidder. What do they care what master they obey, under the laws of what state they live? Provided they can find money to steal and women to corrupt, they feel at home in any country."
    - Considerations on the Government of Poland

    Those words could easily have been written today, as is proven by your own posts in this thread.

    The more uniform European civilization became, the more assertive(and sadly violent) nationalism became. As my one citation above showed, around the time of WWI there were no significant cultural differences between the European nations that would war with each other. This is even true with the recent conflicts in the Balkans, considering that Serbs and Croats both speak the same language.
    Interesting points. I wonder if this is a form of tribalism reasserting itself.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #36
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Interesting points. I wonder if this is a form of tribalism reasserting itself.
    In many ways yes. Let's take into account that there's not just one vision of what the EU should be, there are several and many of them are summarised here:
    Europe? Which Europe? Which future Europe?

    There is one vision called a "Europe of Regions" which strengthens regional and local entities against the powers of the nation-state. So it seems that the major conflict within the EU in the forseeable future maybe one of supranationalism(EU) vs subnationalism(regionalism).

    A historical parallel to this can be found within the Holy Roman Empire of the Medieval period; where Emperors often had to battle with the powers of lesser nobles, city-states and communes. Then in the 15th century, the Hussite risings - which were fused with Czech nationalism(well we call them Czechs today). In fact the original EU does parallel the borders of the former Carolingian Empire.

    To add another twist to this, we could exmaine the argument put forth recently by Jerry Z. Muller in "Us and Them: The Enduring Power of Ethnic Nationalism", where he challenges the argument that Europe has experienced peace since 1945 because Europeans have abandoned national identities.

    He points out that, if anything, the contrary is true. Peace prevailed in Europe in the post-war period because the major goal of nationalism was already achieved - Europe's states were more ethnically homogenous than they were prior to both World Wars.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Interesting points. I wonder if this is a form of tribalism reasserting itself.
    Good point. Why can't football (both kinds) fulfill that need for us?

  8. #38
    Sniffles
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    Allow me to cite another 18th century figure, Johann Gottfried von Herder, who's often considered the intellectual father of modern nationalism. These are some sarcastic remarks of his written in 1774 concerning the prevailing opinion of European society at the time:

    "How wretchedly primitive was the age in which nationality and national character still existed; and, with it, hatred and hostility towards the foreigner, self-centered parochialism, prejudice, attachment to the soil where one was born and in which one was buried; a native mentality, a narrow span of ideas - eternal barbarism! With us, thank God, national character is no more! We love each and every one, or rather, we can dispense with love; for we simply get on with one another, being all equally polite, well-mannered and even-tempered. To be sure, we no longer have a fatherland or any kinship feelings; instead, we are all philanthropic citizens of the world. The princes speak French, and soon everybody will follow their example; and, then, behold, perfect bliss; the golden age, where all the world will speak one tongue, one universal language, is dawning again! There will be one flock and one shepherd! National cultures, where are you?..."


    As with Rousseau's, these remarks could've been written yesterday.

  9. #39
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    Humbug, I say. This is the information age, we need a common language.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Humbug, I say. This is the information age, we need a common language.
    That doesn't mean everyone can't default to their ethnic language. I think there's a difference between "one tongue" and a "common tongue".
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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