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  1. #111
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    But they aren't around now, how are neocons from the past relevant to what today's modern liberals favor in policy?
    They ARE around now. Modern neocons are interventionist, anti-Islamist, economic moderates. They exist in both parties. You're not grasping the historical continuity here. You have in your mind "Republicans = hawks" and that is not the reality of post-WWII America.


    Abdicated their responsibilities? There was faulty intelligence floating around everywhere, so you can't exactly blame them. What should they have said at the time? "I don't believe it"?

    Yes, they abdicated their responsibilities. It is Congress' job to declare war. They didn't do that. They voted to let the President invade, without a formal declaration. That is a clear abdication of their constitutional responsibilities. What makes it worse is that the evidence was so flimsy to begin with.
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  2. #112
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    There is no such thing as price gouging outside of a government-mandated or government-tolerated monopoly.
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  3. #113
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Most government intervention into the economy hurts the economy. Raising taxes definitely does (cutting spending is the only effective way to balance the budget in the long-term).
    Neither side is really raising taxes. They are simply shifting the burden. McCain puts the burden more on the middle class. Obama puts the burden more on the wealthy.

    Also, I never stated my support for supply-side economics, so you will have to defend that assertion, or withdraw it. First of all, hardcore supply-siders usually argue that cutting marginal income tax rates on the wealthiest earners will INCREASE government revenue at certain levels. I don't believe this, unless we are talking about insanely high income tax rates (60% or more for the top bracket). Obviously, I don't want to increase government revenue at all. I want the revenue and the spending to drop. Secondly, cutting the income tax rate isn't "giving money to really rich people." It's THEIR money. You can't give someone something that already belongs to them. Thirdly, the corporate income tax rate should be slashed dramatically. However, that is a tough sell in a country so rich and so perverse that "corporation" is now a dirty word. If people saw the amount of revenue generated by the corporate income tax (and understood how little revenue would be lost by slashing the rate, and, possibly, increasing economic growth), they'd be all for it. Basically, you're mistaking my argument in favor of more laissez-faire policies for Reagan-era voodoo economics. They aren't related.
    When the wealthy pay a lower tax rate than the middle class do, then I consider that giving money to rich people. Why should wealthy investors get a pass while hard working Americans get a big chunk taken out of their paycheck? Warren Buffet complained to Congress that his tax rates were too low compared to many of his employees. If the richest man in the world is complaining about low taxes, then you know something is seriously wrong.
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  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Warren Buffet complained to Congress that his tax rates were too low compared to many of his employees. If the richest man in the world is complaining about low taxes, then you know something is seriously wrong.
    One of the principle differences between the Democratic Party ideal and my own (and others, and Ron Paul) is that I think EVERYONE pays too high taxes, though especially those of lower income. I'd like to see them keep the wealthiest peoples' taxes low, and remove them entirely for the rest of us.

    The government wastes most of its money.

    Democrats complain that military spending is a huge portion of the budget, but the percentage should be EVEN HIGHER. Not because we should spend more on the military, because we should spend less on everything else.

  5. #115
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    All politicians, pundits, and journalists are the same these days.
    They realize that most Americans think in black and white.
    Consistency of thought is not encouraged, rather consistency of support is.
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  6. #116
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Neither side is really raising taxes. They are simply shifting the burden. McCain puts the burden more on the middle class. Obama puts the burden more on the wealthy.



    When the wealthy pay a lower tax rate than the middle class do, then I consider that giving money to rich people. Why should wealthy investors get a pass while hard working Americans get a big chunk taken out of their paycheck? Warren Buffet complained to Congress that his tax rates were too low compared to many of his employees. If the richest man in the world is complaining about low taxes, then you know something is seriously wrong.
    You consider wrong, then. The money belongs to the people that earn it, whether they make $30,000 a year or $30,000,000 a year. The government takes it by force, and it doesn't even bother to use it wisely. Personally, I resent the fact that my tax money goes to Iraq, to people who refuse to work, to pharmaceutical companies and agribusiness, etc. If I were making $1,000,000 a year and $400,000+ of that were going to those things, I wouldn't be resentful. I'd be flat-out pissed off, and I'd try every legal maneuver to avoid paying that much.

    Also, what is wrong is that marginal income tax rates are too high for everyone (except those who do not pay income taxes; their rate is fine). "Too low compared to his employees" means that middle-class people pay way too much in taxes, not that the super-wealthy pay too little. It's not a difficult concept. Raising taxes on the wealthy may play for a lot of Americans, but 1) people making $250,000 a year often consider themselves "middle-class" or "upper-middle class" and mistakenly think they won't get pinched; and 2) a lot of people don't understand how the economy works and are filled with class envy. I'm sorry, but there is no way around that. If you're pissed off because a rich guy's income tax rate (which is already 10-20% higher than yours) is too low, then you're a serious classist and malcontent. That's a totally un-American attitude.
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  7. #117
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    No other entity has the power to check corporate power like the government. Unions and watchdogs are often powerless when matched against pure wealth and power.



    Why not let the government go after price gouging, insider trading, safety? There is really no other guarantee that any other entity has the power to stop these things. I could go into specifics about gouging and insider trading...but we both agree they are bad things.
    No other entity has the power to check corporate power like the government because we have given or have allowed the government too much power. The main role of the government should be national security. There are some other functions, of course, but I can't think of what they are at the moment. (Even so, those other functions should be done with less overhead so that it is more efficient, anyway.)
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  8. #118
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    So should we then believe that all politicians equally suck ass and balls?

    I think not.

    There is such a thing as someone or something being the better of two evils.
    Obviously all politicians suck ass, it's the general way of America lately to pick what they believe is the best answer at the time of voting, lest they veto their opinions entirely.

    At the same time, it's ignorant to boast about corruption because there is less of it. There's nothing to brag about.

    Republicans piss me off because they are corrupt, close-minded, and hate change. I admire the fact that I've heard more Republicans acknowledge this about their party and I do hear a lot of criticism from Republicans about the Republican party. I think the only reason why Democratic attitude pisses me off more is because many people are Democratic simply because they hate Republicans.. not because they necessarily like the Democratic stance any more or less. Also, because of silly comments like the ones posted, "bush abandoned the NAVY" and "I'm on the right side because I accept the lesser and better smelling shit." That sort of ignorant attitude is easy to manipulate, and I don't doubt Democrats are being manipulated.

    I don't agree with either party and the way they preform.. but whichever one, stance wise, has what I want and agree with the most, I choose. I acknowledge I will never get what I want. XD
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  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    That's why we will never elect a Texan again..
    Yeah, that's real unjudgemental of you. "THAT guy says he would be corrupted by the all the absolute power falling into his lap suddenly. It's obviously because he's a Texan."
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  10. #120
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Here is a great Hit and Run post from the Reason website concerning government management of its own funds.

    Hit & Run > Because No One Does Fiscal Reponsibility Like the Federal Government - Reason Magazine
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