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  1. #21
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Of course. But if a group of people are trying to kill you, and not for political reasons, but because they believe it is their god-given command to do so, should we REALLY trying to be pushing for a PEACE with those people?

    Until they don't believe that, in my book, they might as well be dead, because if they won't be killed, they'll throw their own lives away just to kill others.
    I don't believe that the majority of Palestinian extremists are solely (or even primarily) religiously motivated. They have a land dispute with what they consider to be foreign occupiers. The fact that it's the Holy Land for the Abrahamic religions just inflames people more.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #22
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I'll cut them a little slack in that regard, because they had no leaders besides terrorists for 40+ years. There is a long road to hoe left, but Israel is responsible for some of it. If you go back in time, the biggest problems were the British Mandate and the hamhanded way the Western powers carved out the State of Israel post-WWII.
    Yep, never have had this kind of problem if we'd proped up the Ottoman Empire some more, but post WWI no one wanted to, apart from Britain.

    It is similar to the problems partitian and empire made in India. Different religeous groups seem to manage to get on when one is not rulling the other. Arab and Jew co-existed prior to the balfour decalration fine (that was actually made to try to intice Amercia into WWI and had little to do with what was happening in palestine at the time). Mulsim and Hindu in India mostly got on with each other until devolved government was likely to give one or the other power which overarched or unfairly represented one faction over the other. Then the system started to disintegrate into a near civil war. So while arab and jew lived under a practicaly secular ottoman rule and Hindu and Muslim co-existed well enough under the British Raj.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't believe that the majority of Palestinian extremists are solely (or even primarily) religiously motivated. They have a land dispute with what they consider to be foreign occupiers. The fact that it's the Holy Land for the Abrahamic religions just inflames people more.
    The land itself is of far greater religious value to the Israeli side...

  4. #24
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    The land itself is of far greater religious value to the Israeli side...
    I know several committed Zionists who are actually agnostics. Like I wrote before, it's about more than just the religious aspect. It's about cultural identity and the concept of "homeland" and what it means to be a Jew for them.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #25
    Sniffles
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    The Jewish philosopher Martin Buber was in favor of a bi-national state, even if it meant having an Arab minority.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't believe that the majority of Palestinian extremists are solely (or even primarily) religiously motivated. They have a land dispute with what they consider to be foreign occupiers. The fact that it's the Holy Land for the Abrahamic religions just inflames people more.
    Religious, political, whatever. The fact is that we have a bunch of people taking every chance they get to kill Israelis.

    If they were all carpet bombed to death, we wouldn't have any more of these issues.

    America itself wiped out a heck of a lot of Indians and Mexicans in order to stretch from "sea to shining sea". To not stand behind Israel in whatever it deems necessary to defend itself IMO is hypocrisy of the highest order.

    Why does the world care about the Palestinians? What do they do that make them worth caring about? They're a parasite on the world.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  7. #27
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Sorry my Jewish friends, but the only way for peace is for yall to bounce out of the Middle East.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Never!! It's their God-given land.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Religious, political, whatever. The fact is that we have a bunch of people taking every chance they get to kill Israelis.

    If they were all carpet bombed to death, we wouldn't have any more of these issues.

    America itself wiped out a heck of a lot of Indians and Mexicans in order to stretch from "sea to shining sea". To not stand behind Israel in whatever it deems necessary to defend itself IMO is hypocrisy of the highest order.

    Why does the world care about the Palestinians? What do they do that make them worth caring about? They're a parasite on the world.
    Because they are human beings. Frankly at the time the US destroyed the Native Americans, and then created false reason for stealing land form the Mexicans, the free world had accepted imperialism as a right and proper consideration. It was their moral duty to colonies the world and bring civilisation and Christianity to the masses. America joined in with their "Manifest Destiny" as much as the older nations of Europe. To consider action taken in 1970 as being justified as they appear similar to those taken in the 19th century is ridiculous.


    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I know several committed Zionists who are actually agnostics. Like I wrote before, it's about more than just the religious aspect. It's about cultural identity and the concept of "homeland" and what it means to be a Jew for them.
    Sadly this also belongs in another century. They had a homeland, and they decided it wasn't 'complete' the justification for the seven days wars, a war of conquest; a plain and simple land grab, was the scriptural description of the territorial limits of the promised land. The lines on the map that the Zionists want are religious and bear no resemblance to any MODERN claims to land. These are nearly always rejected but are made on the case of ethnicity of the population. As I said in 1967 there was a secure Israeli state, it went to war not to create a homeland, they had that already, they conquered someone else's because they wanted more land. That seriously belongs in a different century too. A Zionist that doesn't believe in God who then wants Solomon's national borders or even the ones promised but never realised doesn't even have the flimsy recourse to religion with which to attempt to justify their greed.

    If the UK attempted to press claims to their old possessions in France the world would assume they lost their minds.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    I don't know enough about this topic to feel okay going on at length about it. But here are the things I have heard:

    -the state of Israel was formed after WWII as a location for displaced Jews (kind of as a reparation?). [Wikipedia seems to suggest that this was actually happening before WWII, around WWI... was this an effort merely by Zionists, or was it an effort encouraged by antisemites who wanted European Jews out?]

    -the land was actually purchased from Palestinians; so it wasn't really like the land was STOLEN and that the Jews are OCCUPIERS. However, if this was done in a heavy-handed way by the UN, it might make sense that the Palestinians perceive the situation as theft, even if they technically were compensated.

    -Palestinians have been the prime aggressors. To what are they responding, though? Are they just attacking to be aggressive and defend their concept of what's "theirs," or are there civil rights issues as well? I am not asking a question that I know the answer to here!

    -It seems that the Great Britain was involved. Are there some colonialism or post-colonialism issues here that ought to be recognized when sorting out blame?

    -Each side seems to have denied or actively deny that the other side exists or has a right to exist.

    -It seems that Palestinians have (I haven't looked it up right now, and I don't have time to) complained about the treatment of Palestinians by Israeli soldiers and such, and they have complained about essentially being forced into "ghettos." Again, this is just something I vaguely remember reading about.

    My impression has always been (now, this is an impression that I admit may come from not having enough information) that somehow, the UN or League of Nations fucked up by imposing the state of Israel on Palestine--even if the Palestinians were technically compensated. Also, it seems to me that each side has actually hurt the other and neither is merely a victim. Terrorism is not a good way for Palestine to handle these issues, for sure... it seems that Palestine lacks appropriate leadership since they repeatedly resort to those tactics instead of real diplomacy.




    Here's the one thing I DO feel pretty sure about, though: The US is all up in Israel because of the religious right. Fundamentalists believe that Israel must exist for Jesus to return, and they see support of Israel as necessary for facilitating the second coming. It is FUCKED UP. Do I know what we should do? Nope (but thankfully, I suppose, I'm not in a position to be in charge.... unlike some other people who probably don't know what we should do either).
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

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