User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 11

  1. #1

    Post Does racial pride contribute to racial division?

    This issue has come up several times in some of my past college courses where we discussed cultural diversity, pride, and intolerance etc. Two schools of thought often emerged... The first was that racial pride should be allowed to extend to anyone, including whites, in the name of equanimity. The second was that cultural pride is an outdated tool for "minorities" to secure a place of respect for themselves in the world and is antithetical to social equanimity. (This from someone who sees merit in affirmative action. )

    I am inclined to agree with the second school of thought, as well as admit that it's protracted use could/is resulting in an ironic/hypocritical reversal of prejudice equally as bad as the events leading to its inception. [I've seen this same argument made for the feminist movement as well. The theory that feminism (as a good intention) has become hyper-feminism (good intentions souring and mutating) and is tainting popular culture with reverse discriminations. There's a comedy skit by political humorist Bill Maher on this topic. He deviates for entertainment purposes, but you get the idea. The topic is worthy of its own thread, but back to our regularly scheduled programming...]

    I am curious what other MBTIcers think: Does racial pride contribute to racial division? Explain your answer.

    My perspective is rather unique, but not uncommon in the 21st century. I'm biracial. My family is large and multi-racial. I suspect that this "perspective" if you think of it as such, is going to become increasingly more common as time goes on.

    *************************
    (Optional reading)
    If you care to know my background:

    My mother is a Mexican raised in America. Her father was a Mexican of (purportedly) pure Spanish blood. (He certainly looked it: 6'2, 250lbs, fair skinned, & green-eyed.) Her mother was a Mexican, an illegal immigrant to the U.S., of Native American descent. (She looked it: 4'11, 90lbs, brown skinned, & dark-eyed.) My father is your generic white American. The ancestry is muddled with a stew of English, Welsh, German, and French ancestry. Dash in a great-great grandmother who was Cherokee.

    It gets more interesting.

    Upon the death of my maternal grandmother and subsequent alcoholism of my maternal grandfather, my mother was adopted by her father's brother and his white American wife. Her Mexican cousins, as well as her white step-cousins, became her adopted brothers and sisters.

    Not to mention, upon the abandonment of my paternal white grandmother by my paternal white grandfather, she remarried a black man resulting in the ostracization of both by their families when my father was just a boy. Thereby making my father's black step-father (and the only one he knew for all intents and purposes) his real father; his parent's marital adventures ultimately granted him 2 black step-sisters, 1 mulatto step-sister, and 7 (whole and half) white siblings.

    All of this occurred in the sixties mind you... half of it in the good ole South (Missouri and Texas) and the other half in Detroit, MI. My predecessors were not popular at block parties. One can imagine the social commentary.

    Through dint of marriage and adoption, I am now lovingly bound to people of the Puerto Rican, Dominican, African-American, Italian, Brazilian, and Phillipinno persuasion. Between my four brothers (whole, half, and step) and myself there is white American, Mexican, Italian, and Brazilian.

    I am dating a man who is, to his knowledge, 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Portuguese, 1/4 Armenian and 1/4 Jewish (untraceable nationality, courtesy of the Holocaust); all four grandparents from their countries of origin. His family celebrates Hanukkah and Christmas! (Lucky friggin kids...) They speak Spanish as well as I do on account of their living in a Dominican neighborhood in Manhattan. Our future children will be, if nothing else, as colorful as our family events. My holiday meals have already included Turkey, lasagna, Puerto Rican rice & beans, Filipino pastries, and Mexican Coffee in a single house. I've been informed future events may include gefilte fish.

    Bwahahahahaha, beat that Mariah Cary and Tiger Woods.


    ************************

    So to me, race is everything and nothing, all at once. If I were to tout racial pride, I'd be running in circles with umpteen national flags. Even my grandparents have admitted in their ways that where they were from was much more important when they were growing up. Imho, the relevance of our cultural, national, or racial origin is increasingly becoming an outdated and obsolete concept. The difference of opinion here, usually seems to lie between the when as opposed to the if but I am open to new input.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  2. #2
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Does racial pride contribute to racial division?

    Yes. It's a given. Racial pride requires a large amount of racial distinction, which would not be possible without racial division.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  3. #3
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    I think you should be more careful to differentiate between racial and cultural pride. The former is just plain stupid (kind of like taking pride in being a brunette or a red-head). The latter is a much more complicated issue, kind of like determining whether patriotism or community spirit is an inherently good or bad thing, or whether it depends on the reasons, circumstances, and degree of such pride.

  4. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I think you should be more careful to differentiate between racial and cultural pride. The former is just plain stupid (kind of like taking pride in being a brunette or a red-head). The latter is a much more complicated issue, kind of like determining whether patriotism or community spirit is an inherently good or bad thing, or whether it depends on the reasons, circumstances, and degree of such pride.
    I suppose the terms are too frequently used interchangeably. I understand your reasoning, but I'm reluctant to use the term cultural pride because it could imply a discussion involving American pride vs. <other> pride and this is not a question of patriotism. The rationale of my choice is tenuous, but necessary -imo- to avoid this sort of confusion.

    Do you have a suggestion to better clarify the question?
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  5. #5
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Do you have a suggestion to better clarify the question?
    Identity-group pride, maybe? Its somewhat unwieldy, I'll grant you, but it seems appropriate for your intented usage.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Identity-group pride, maybe? Its somewhat unwieldy, I'll grant you, but it seems appropriate for your intented usage.
    Meh. That ropes in even more unintended discussions like gender, sexuality, and religion. Methinks terminology is half the battle in this discussion.

    G.I. Joooooooe!
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  7. #7
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    xNTJ
    Posts
    443

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    *snippage of a whole lot of cultural diversity from one person*
    Holy Christ, I'm surprised Angelina Jolie hasn't tried to adopt you.

    I'm into genealogy, and I find the Welsh names (Welsh ancestry comes into play prior to the War of the Roses) immensely confusing. I find the Arabic names in there (from around the time of the Crusades) even more confusing still.

    That you can keep all of that straight is pretty amazing.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I think you should be more careful to differentiate between racial and cultural pride. The former is just plain stupid (kind of like taking pride in being a brunette or a red-head). The latter is a much more complicated issue, kind of like determining whether patriotism or community spirit is an inherently good or bad thing, or whether it depends on the reasons, circumstances, and degree of such pride.
    Precisely that. I have a lot of pride in my southern-ness. Yeah, I'm white, I'm fair skinned, and I'm blue-eyed. That's nice.

    I'm very proud of the southern heritage that I was raised with. That doesn't mean that non-southern people are necessarily inferior, but there are cultural differences. There's nothing wrong with embracing the things that make us different. Sure as hell beats everyone trying to be exactly the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    I suppose the terms are too frequently used interchangeably. I understand your reasoning, but I'm reluctant to use the term cultural pride because it could imply a discussion involving American pride vs. <other> pride and this is not a question of patriotism. The rationale of my choice is tenuous, but necessary -imo- to avoid this sort of confusion.

    Do you have a suggestion to better clarify the question?
    Regional pride, maybe? *shrugs*
    Last edited by proteanmix; 09-09-2008 at 07:40 AM. Reason: merged posts
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  8. #8

    Default

    I definitely think racial pride contributes to racial division. I think a parallel can be drawn to nationalism causing war. That said, I think (hope) this is a matter of degrees, and a healthy amount of pride can be present without causing friction.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Holy Christ, I'm surprised Angelina Jolie hasn't tried to adopt you.

    I'm into genealogy, and I find the Welsh names (Welsh ancestry comes into play prior to the War of the Roses) immensely confusing. I find the Arabic names in there (from around the time of the Crusades) even more confusing still.

    That you can keep all of that straight is pretty amazing.
    My aunt is into genealogy as well. She's dug pretty far back. I've wanted to pursue some of it myself, but never seem to have the time.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  10. #10
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Socionics
    INTj
    Posts
    4,463

    Default

    I very much doubt that being proud of your roots is a cause of much problem... the problem comes when people take it beyond what is pride into something else.

    Also it becomes a problem when people get all religious about their "heritage". I'm afriad that in my book if you're a tenth generation somethingorother and have been living in Peckham for all those years then your roots are Peckham and not some fanciful idealised version of your homeland. That kind of "pride" is nothing more than a vain attempt to differentiate yourself from those around you and is quite often nothing but trouble.

    Taking pride in who you are is not a problem.. becoming fierce and defensive is always a problem. It's drawing lines for people to cross or iow setting yourself up to take pot shots at whomever you fancy.

    A good test is to see whether anyone who identifies with a culture can be included or if certain individuals require some BS kind of historical evidence of your liniage being there or not. Basically they're trying to add power to themselves by setting up an exclusive club where only those from their own little group qualify for membership. Example, if there were a group around me who decided that after having a family history of about 100 years in the UK that they were actually Mongols and would make some "minority" out of the fact that 100 years ago they came from Mongolia. Were this group to start collecting everything Monoglian and claim to be "true" patriots to Mongolia then this would then create a situation. Would I, a white male with a history from France and all over the place, be able to join in? No. Why? Because they are Mongolian? BS. It's almost inevitable that the 'bloodline' was muddied (either that or they're very interbred) and as such aren't Mongolian anymore but some mongrel breed like everyone else. Ergo should not anyone be able to join now that it's clear that there is no blood requirement?

    To underline the thinking, would you adopt a child only to exclude it from your family name and all family celebrations?

    Basically if it's racial pride then all should be members of the same race, once that gets muddied then surely it's cultural pride and anyone who get's involved in the culture should be able to join in.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

Similar Threads

  1. [Other] does anyone else like to say weird or random things
    By whimsical in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: 06-29-2014, 11:14 PM
  2. [NF] Does anyone else forget to breathe?
    By Silent Stars in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 06-17-2009, 10:37 PM
  3. Valuable research you could contribute to
    By Synarch in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 06-04-2009, 11:14 AM
  4. [ENFP] What does an ENFP love to hear?
    By DeVie in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 07-13-2008, 11:35 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO