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  1. #161
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Funny that he suggested Thomas Sowell, who is a libertarian, and that you suggested Mancur Olson, who was into public choice theory and was a firm believer in limited government, although I don't know if I would call him a full-blown libertarian.
    Nothing funny about it. Mancur Olson certainly was not a "full-blown libertarian". He stops to point out why various libertarian beliefs are wrong from time to time. The last book he wrote was called "Power and Prosperity: Outgrowing Communist and Capitalist Dictatorships". The point being that he didn't think much better of capitalism...

    Olson believed in allowing markets to be "distorted" as you would say, predominately for the purpose of preventing predation. He supported "market augmenting government". That's just one example. The recurring theme of Olson's beliefs is to put decisions in the hands of encompassing interests instead of narrow interests. Whether it meshes with libertarianism or not doesn't really matter.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #162
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Nothing funny about it. Mancur Olson certainly was not a "full-blown libertarian". He stops to point out why various libertarian beliefs are wrong from time to time. The last book he wrote was called "Power and Prosperity: Outgrowing Communist and Capitalist Dictatorships". The point being that he didn't think much better of capitalism...
    Yes, I know Olson likes to debunk the more radical Austrian-style libertarian economists. However, his work in public choice theory has done a lot to show how government agents and special interest groups can game the system (and that IS quite libertarian).

    Olson believed in allowing markets to be "distorted" as you would say, predominately for the purpose of preventing predation. He supported "market augmenting government". That's just one example. The recurring theme of Olson's beliefs is to put decisions in the hands of encompassing interests instead of narrow interests. Whether it meshes with libertarianism or not doesn't really matter.
    It matters when he supported limits on the state's power to favor certain groups and interests over others, doesn't it?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #163
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You think the American Sociological Review and Social Forces are unbiased sources? Those statistics show absolutely NO causation there. They show nothing of economic growth in those nations during the same period of time. They don't even list the dates at which these programs began! I could show stats that say that the Dow Jones had an up year in 2003, and, therefore, it was higher than it was in 2000 (which is false).
    Well they are serious mainstream sociology journals, and this is a sociological issue.

    Look how much poverty goes down post-transfer for every single country listed, many times reducing by 4x or 5x, it would be a bizarre coincidence if anti-poverty programs only correlate with lowered poverty rates lol.

    As the study rightfully concludes "Empirical evidence suggests that taxes and transfers considerably reduce poverty in all developed countries"

  4. #164
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Yes, I know Olson likes to debunk the more radical Austrian-style libertarian economists. However, his work in public choice theory has done a lot to show how government agents and special interest groups can game the system (and that IS quite libertarian).
    True. He was very open to the potential flaws of government, but he did not denounce it as much as most libertarians, including ones like you. He wanted the government to preside over business more than you do.

    Also note "special interests". That's really just another way of saying narrow interest. It comes back to his general aim. Always give cause for encompassing interest. As you may well know, the pursuit of encompassing interest sometimes takes very, very communitarian turns.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It matters when he supported limits on the state's power to favor certain groups and interests over others, doesn't it?
    I would say all of his clashes with libertarianism matter at least just as much. Basically, the summary of what I've said in this post is that I think Olson's agreements with libertarianism are incidental.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #165
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Social welfare programs do not raise the overall GDP of a nation. Those programs produce nothing of substance. They only serve to take resources from one group and distribute them to another. If anything, they serve to lower overall GDP by reducing the incentive to do something productive (the magnitude of this effect is debatable).
    Let's also make it clear, though, that the marginal propensity to consume is not homogeneous among the population. This is the Keynesian principle upon which all the social welfare policies are ultimately based, given that their primary effect would be one of demand upswing.
    In practice, welfare policies are often used as a means to gain electorate. But this problem does not discount the fact that they definitely can be useful, given the right circumstances.

    Different tools are made for different purposes in different situations. That's why I have already stopped voting here, and I probably will never get back to it. A completely technical and non-ideological government would be the best for applying the right methods when needed, without any prescription due to them being "republican" or "liberal".
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  6. #166
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Ermm... I don't agree with most of her policty stances, and she actually has less experience than Obama. She's also demonstrated remarkable ignorace of politics. I don't think the presidency is the place for her.
    i can't see her acting like george bush. i can definitely see mccain acting like bush though.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post


    You and I need to have a major ENFP powwow, for reals!!!!
    pshhhhhh! is that all the attention I get???????? :steam:


  7. #167
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Let's do a book swap! You can send me that and a few others you like while I can send you some stuff by Mancur Olson(and probably a few other things).

    EDIT: I'm not sure which part of statement was supposedly a fallacy, but I hope it wasn't th fact about income going to the top 20%. It's starting to get silly if you really want me to consider you a more reliable source than the CIA.
    The point is, the top 20%, today, is vastly different than the top 20% of 30+ years ago. A substantial portion of that top 20% was poor or middle class back in the 70s.

  8. #168
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    True. He was very open to the potential flaws of government, but he did not denounce it as much as most libertarians, including ones like you. He wanted the government to preside over business more than you do.

    Also note "special interests". That's really just another way of saying narrow interest. It comes back to his general aim. Always give cause for encompassing interest. As you may well know, the pursuit of encompassing interest sometimes takes very, very communitarian turns.
    It would seem to me that his showing that very narrow interests often winning out over a broad-based interest due to money and government influence would make a fine argument for limiting the amount of government influence there is, wouldn't it?



    I would say all of his clashes with libertarianism matter at least just as much. Basically, the summary of what I've said in this post is that I think Olson's agreements with libertarianism are incidental.

    I think I see a good amount of intellectual heritage descended from Locke and Mill in Olson, although I have not read all of his stuff. I think one could safely put him in the "friend of liberty" pile. He certainly was for property rights and basic market frameworks.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #169
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Well they are serious mainstream sociology journals, and this is a sociological issue.

    Look how much poverty goes down post-transfer for every single country listed, many times reducing by 4x or 5x, it would be a bizarre coincidence if anti-poverty programs only correlate with lowered poverty rates lol.

    As the study rightfully concludes "Empirical evidence suggests that taxes and transfers considerably reduce poverty in all developed countries"
    No, it doesn't! There is NOTHING there to suggest that! You have to understand that. There is no causation shown whatsoever.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #170
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    I'm so depressed. I feel like our country is heading for disaster. I have my neighbor telling me that Obama is going to ruin us, while I feel McCain isn't the right choice. Maybe once the debating commences I'll feel more reassured.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

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