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  1. #151
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Nice strawman. I don't recall anyone saying that.
    Well, even if you think it's a strawman, it's not technically mine since I was just giving the best explanation I could of what they other guy was trying to say.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #152
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Since the 70s the vast majority of all wealth developed in the USA has gone to the top 20 richest percentile of the country. So, that implies bad odds that you will get much richer, especially proportionately richer, in your lifetime if you are starting from the bottom steps.
    Read Economic Facts and Fallacies, by Thomas Sowell. He refutes your points far better than I could.

  3. #153
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Read Economic Facts and Fallacies, by Thomas Sowell. He refutes your points far better than I could.
    Let's do a book swap! You can send me that and a few others you like while I can send you some stuff by Mancur Olson(and probably a few other things).

    EDIT: I'm not sure which part of statement was supposedly a fallacy, but I hope it wasn't th fact about income going to the top 20%. It's starting to get silly if you really want me to consider you a more reliable source than the CIA.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #154
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    GDP is a major factor in those calculations. Your comments implied that welfare states would also have the highest GDP, which might lead some people to believe that welfare programs add to GDP.
    I think you mis-interpreted what I said. And GDP is just one of like 10 main factors in those QOF studies, do you think GDP should be the sole or main factor for determining QOL? Why?

  5. #155
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    To get a good view of what effect welfare states have on poverty look at the "Effects on poverty" graph here: Welfare state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Did you bother to look at the top?

    "This article or section may be inaccurate or unbalanced in favour of certain viewpoints." I mean, it was under the Social Democracy portal, for Christ's sake.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #156
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Did you bother to look at the top?

    "This article or section may be inaccurate or unbalanced in favour of certain viewpoints." I mean, it was under the Social Democracy portal, for Christ's sake.
    Did you look at the graph? Makes social welfare look very impressive. Do you have a reason to not believe their figures? The graph cites it's sources, like the American Sociological Review.

    Do you just not like the graph because it doesn't support your viewpoint?

  7. #157
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Since the 70s the vast majority of all wealth developed in the USA has gone to the top 20 richest percentile of the country. So, that implies bad odds that you will get much richer, especially proportionately richer, in your lifetime if you are starting from the bottom steps.





    So says the CIA.

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...s/us.html#Econ
    Your odds for obtaining wealth may not be as good as if you were born a Rockefeller, but, regardless, the opportunities *are* there.

    I've moved up the ranks. Other poor folks that I grew up with have moved up the ranks. Other poor folk that I grew up with are still poor white trash. The difference between them and me is that I swore I wouldn't stay poor white trash. Personal drive has a lot to do with it.

    And you know what? I worked hard to crawl out of the trailer park. It wasn't a welfare trailer park (so no government handouts for me or mine), but it was still a trailer park. The fact that I had to work to get out made me a stronger person. It shaped who I am. And it shows that anyone can do it, if only they are willing to work for it. It sure as hell shouldn't be a hand out.

    What you're missing is that someone in those extremely rich families that you're referring to busted their ass along the way to generate that wealth. It wasn't handed to them without someone earning it.

    Let's pick on Paris Hilton, since she's everyone's favorite party slut girl. Her great-grandfather, the founder of the Hilton chain, was the son of two immigrants. He was a self-made man who fought in WWI as an enlisted soldier who went on to become an officer.

    Or Sam Walton, founder of Wal-Mart. He grew up dirt poor in the Depression. His father had a job, but not a very nice one. His dad's job was to foreclose farms for the bank. He died the richest man in the United States. And that was because he worked hard for it.

    There's something to be said about the self-made man. I'd prefer that than for my government to go and reassign wealth, and take away incentive for those who generate wealth to continue to do so. I'd rather see the ambitious kid from the hood maintain his drive to work his way out, rather than to see the government pat him on the head and tell him that it's okay to be inferior, because they'll just give you money to make you feel more equal, anyway.

    Fuck that noise. If you work hard, anything is possible. If you don't want to work hard, then you still get the opportunity to blame the system for keeping you down.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  8. #158
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Your odds for obtaining wealth may not be as good as if you were born a Rockefeller, but, regardless, the opportunities *are* there.

    I've moved up the ranks. Other poor folks that I grew up with have moved up the ranks. Other poor folk that I grew up with are still poor white trash. The difference between them and me is that I swore I wouldn't stay poor white trash. Personal drive has a lot to do with it.

    And you know what? I worked hard to crawl out of the trailer park. It wasn't a welfare trailer park (so no government handouts for me or mine), but it was still a trailer park. The fact that I had to work to get out made me a stronger person. It shaped who I am. And it shows that anyone can do it, if only they are willing to work for it. It sure as hell shouldn't be a hand out.

    What you're missing is that someone in those extremely rich families that you're referring to busted their ass along the way to generate that wealth. It wasn't handed to them without someone earning it.

    Let's pick on Paris Hilton, since she's everyone's favorite party slut girl. Her great-grandfather, the founder of the Hilton chain, was the son of two immigrants. He was a self-made man who fought in WWI as an enlisted soldier who went on to become an officer.

    Or Sam Walton, founder of Wal-Mart. He grew up dirt poor in the Depression. His father had a job, but not a very nice one. His dad's job was to foreclose farms for the bank. He died the richest man in the United States. And that was because he worked hard for it.

    There's something to be said about the self-made man. I'd prefer that than for my government to go and reassign wealth, and take away incentive for those who generate wealth to continue to do so. I'd rather see the ambitious kid from the hood maintain his drive to work his way out, rather than to see the government pat him on the head and tell him that it's okay to be inferior, because they'll just give you money to make you feel more equal, anyway.

    Fuck that noise. If you work hard, anything is possible. If you don't want to work hard, then you still get the opportunity to blame the system for keeping you down.
    It's easier to move up the social and economic ladder in Europe. I don't remember the exact study referenced when I saw a report a this, but I know a funny quote that went with it "If you want to live the American dream, move to Europe."

  9. #159
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Let's do a book swap! You can send me that and a few others you like while I can send you some stuff by Mancur Olson(and probably a few other things).

    EDIT: I'm not sure which part of statement was supposedly a fallacy, but I hope it wasn't th fact about income going to the top 20%. It's starting to get silly if you really want me to consider you a more reliable source than the CIA.
    Funny that he suggested Thomas Sowell, who is a libertarian, and that you suggested Mancur Olson, who was into public choice theory and was a firm believer in limited government, although I don't know if I would call him a full-blown libertarian.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #160
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Did you look at the graph? Makes social welfare look very impressive. Do you have a reason to not believe their figures? The graph cites it's sources, like the American Sociological Review.

    Do you just not like the graph because it doesn't support your viewpoint?
    You think the American Sociological Review and Social Forces are unbiased sources? Those statistics show absolutely NO causation there. They show nothing of economic growth in those nations during the same period of time. They don't even list the dates at which these programs began! I could show stats that say that the Dow Jones had an up year in 2003, and, therefore, it was higher than it was in 2000 (which is false).
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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