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  1. #61
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Maybe if the pro-life feminist doesn't believe in the rule of law. Ethically, sure, they can consider it not valid.
    Feminists (and other activists) fight for removing legal rights all the time, if they think those legal rights infringe on basic human rights. It was once legal to fire women when they got pregnant; now it's not (technically). I suppose the feminists who fought for that change in the law didn't believe in the rule of law either?
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  2. #62
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Legal rights, the standard or principal is obviously the legal system.
    I wouldn't call something that is based solely upon legislation a right. Sorry. The "right" to abortion in the United States is actually a right to privacy under the Due Process Clause (which DOES concern itself with rights) that the Supreme Court decided was inherent, i.e., women always had it, but had been denied it by various state abortion laws. Now, in the United States, the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of what you would call "legal rights," but we don't need their imprimatur (nor even that of the U.S. Constitution, the ultimate governmental authority) when it comes to rights. Look at the Kelo case. The Supreme Court got that one wrong, if you believe in the right to hold property.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #63
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous View Post
    This is the kid that knocked her up:



    She picked a winner, alright!
    Since he's getting the ol ball and chain now, I'll take the one on the left off his hands.
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  4. #64
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    They don't have to not believe in the rule of law to consider the law invalid. Some people consider their own moral code to supercede the law.
    Valid as in "having legal force" "being legal" or as in "sound" "just"?

    With the latter, yeah they can believe it to be non-valid, but the law still exists, so in that sense, it's valid.

  5. #65
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I wouldn't call something that is based solely upon legislation a right.
    Which is why it's called a legal right, and not simply, a right. They aren't the same thing, one exists totally in the legal realm. Your thinking is too black and white in this instance.

  6. #66
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    *groans* Do they not have access to birth control in Alaska? Or is it just that it's so darned cold and boring there that pretty much all teen agers can do with their time is boink?

    Gotta say, maybe a less conservative mother might have prevented this.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  7. #67
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Gotta say, maybe a less conservative mother might have prevented this.
    Now, that's just silly.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  8. #68
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    *groans* Do they not have access to birth control in Alaska? Or is it just that it's so darned cold and boring there that pretty much all teen agers can do with their time is boink?

    Gotta say, maybe a less conservative mother might have prevented this.
    Man, think about the situation for this kid if Palin becomes President later on somehow. A lot of guys complain about their mothers-in-law. What would it be like if you knocked up the President's underage daughter, and you're not prepared for the responsibility? Scary.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #69
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That doesn't hold water. If you honestly believe that abortion is murder, then there IS no right to do it. You have to be able to understand that line of reasoning.
    Someone I know put it this way:

    "I'm pro-choice. I, personally believe that abortion is wrong. I believe that it is murder. But I do not believe that I have the right to impose my own views of reproduction on someone else."
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  10. #70
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Legally it doesn't, that's all I'm pointing out. Whether abortion does or doesn't equal murder is another debate.
    Ok, I see you've been using the term "legal right" all along, so I see what you mean now I think:

    Feminism is normally against removing legal rights.
    Pro-Life feminists want to remove this legal right.
    Therefore pro-life feminists can't really be considered feminists (or at least they're a strange kind of feminists.)

    Am I right?

    That logic works, but I think the first premise is a bit too simple. Feminists are normally against moving legal rights, but not because they're legal rights. They seem instead to be led by what they perceive as universal human rights. Whenever those universal rights line up with legal rights, they defend the legal rights. When they don't, they try to change the legal rights.

    If we change the first premise, the logic of the pro-life feminists is:
    Feminism is giving women universal human rights and defending these.
    Abortion is murder.
    Being able to murder is not an universal human right.
    The right to live is an universal human right.
    Therefore it's logical to prevent abortion.

    Whereas the more common feminist logic goes:
    Feminism is giving women universal human rights and defending these.
    Abortion is not murder.
    Authority over ones own body is a universal right.
    Therefore it's logical to defend the legal right to adoption.
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