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  1. #61
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    He listed 29 practical specific policy promises in his last speech, what more do you want? He's being substantive.
    But not realistic. Accomplishing these specifics is at odds with the capital that we can put forth on making these specific fantasies a reality.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  2. #62
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    What good does specific policy *promises* mean if they are not doable???

    By the way, as a little aside, do you know what? In English grammar, promises are made in will future tense. You know why? Because the will future is used for things that are not 100% certain.

    So that should give you an idea regarding the English-speaking world's view on 'promises.' heh.

    In German, they are also made in our WILL future because our will future is used only for things that are 100% sure. Yeah. Cultural difference I guess.
    Most of the policies he wants have already been done in other more left-leaning countries, at least to a degree. I'm not really hearing anything too radical coming his discussions on policy.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    But that's "fair".
    *grins* While this may seem like a very un-NTJ thing to say, fairness is overrated. Not when fair doesn't work any better than unfair.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  4. #64
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Not at all. The market is more efficient at providing care for some, but the government would be the most efficient at providing it for all, since they are the only viable means to do so. It's a simple concept.
    A simple concept, pfft. You're just shifting your argument.

    I don't know why I waste my time with you. You have such a poor understanding of economics, I feel like I'm discussing hygiene with a hobo.

  5. #65
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    Isn't it the case that the top 10% of this nation's population own 90% of the nation's wealth? So if you reduce taxes for the bottom 10% of the wealth and increase it for the top 90% of the wealth by equal or greater amounts, don't you come out ahead?

    I realize that Obama is a brilliant orator and makes a lot of things sound possible. But I'd rather we have a president that shot the moon and hit the stars than a president that promises more of the same and keeps that promise.

    Is it idealistic? You bet. That's why I like the guy. I also can relate to him. I myself am an immigrant that came to this country when I was four. Between me and my two parents, we had $15 and 2 suitcases, coming from Russia. And now, I think I'm going to have a good shot at Wall Street coming out of college.

    I can relate with a mother working to make ends meet, and a father that didn't really help with too much. I can relate to being idealistic, and making everything out of a chance at education, and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps.

    And I would much rather have an idealist in office that makes at least something work than this geezer that can't even remember how many homes his family owns. Come on now.

    I'm not sure Obama can do everything he says. But I'd love to see him try. It's better than the third term of Bush.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  6. #66
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Most of the policies he wants have already been done in other more left-leaning countries, at least to a degree. I'm not really hearing anything too radical coming his discussions on policy.
    Look, no offense, buddy, but haven't you been listening to me??? The system is inefficient. It's not totally USELESS - but it is INEFFICIENT. I mean, I thank goodness every day that I had my OP completely paid for and that I have four weeks of rehab that only required me to pay a copay of 50 euros. If I had not had that option, I would probably be unable to walk, have children, or go to the bathroom anymore. TRUST ME - I am THANKFUL.

    But this system as it works now will not last forever. You have to admit that. I mean, Jeez Louise, we are experiencing a demographic shift where there is the 'reverse pyramid' phenomenon. Are you aware of what I mean? The base of society (by the way, also the tax-paying part) should be young people. The middle should be middle-aged people. The smallest tip should be older people. But now it's reverse.

    In Germany, we are now worried about the possibility that we may not have a dignified health care system and death in the future. Why? Because we are heading towards the American system. WE HAVE TO. We cannot pay for it anymore!!!!!!

    Ten to twenty years ago, people were getting rehab and 'cures' whenever they didn't want to work or when they wanted to get free holiday. I'm NOT shitting you now. And the system was great - til the reunification and all our money went to East Germany and then the economic crisis and the dot com bubble burst, and shit fire! We did not have the money anymore - imagine that! Ferk - what to do????

    Yeah, so now we are reforming our system towards the American version because it just does not work in the long run. *shrugs* People never fail to abuse systems and cause them to fall.

    In a perfect system full of machines, your premise might work. But in the real world <----We're down here - on the ground, by the way - it does not work.
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  7. #67
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    But not realistic. Accomplishing these specifics is at odds with the capital that we can put forth on making these specific fantasies a reality.
    RIGHT!!!!
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  8. #68
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    *grins* While this may seem like a very un-NTJ thing to say, fairness is overrated. Not when fair doesn't work any better than unfair.
    Heh. Right!!!
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  9. #69
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    In a perfect system full of machines, your premise might work. But in the real world <----We're down here - on the ground, by the way - it does not work.
    You hit on the primary point of why socialism (and all of its various forms) fails. It's based on a flawed understanding of human nature.

  10. #70
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    Fairness indeed is overrated, but thinking about it from a social architectural standpoint, the rich can't stay rich when everyone else is poor. Not in a first-world nation anyway. Look, I want to get filthy stinking rich so that everyone on Wall Street knows my name. I want to live at the top of a skyscraper, pay for my kids' educations to go to elite private schools and top-notch universities, have all the perks of a good life, etc. and so forth. In fact, it'd be the ultimate example of the American dream considering that my first two years in this country were living in a cockroach infested apartment.

    HOWEVER: most of the people in this country are not as ambitious as I am, and they're the ones that provide the most man-hours into this economy. Without them, we go to hell in a hand-basket. I believe that if I work hard enough, I'll get my just rewards. In the meantime, I am a citizen of the U.S.A., and as such a citizen, especially one that's been in the lower class living off of food stamps, one that's in the middle class now, and one that wants to be in the upper echelons, I have to ensure that that same chance is offered to every single other person living in the U.S.A. who wants this country and others like it (read: Israel) to prosper.

    Greed is good.

    However, the key is to make sure that this ambition for lots of goodies reaches down to the little people so that they can make our country better.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

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