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  1. #51
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    But people come to America to get the best possible treatment. (There are a few other countries like Israel iirc which do a great job as well)

    And I'm pretty sure American R&D had quite a hand in the techniques used all over the world.
    Kudos. Another good argument. This is because America does not have as much bureaucracy. Germany is as capable and intelligent as USA - probably more so if we did not have the so called 'brain drain' phenomenon (sorry guys) - BUT we don't have the results? Why? Because our bureaucracy STIFLES us.
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  2. #52
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    AMEN!!!!! Listen to him ^^ This is what I am saying. The man has great ideas - don't get me wrong. But they are IDEAS and IDEALS - NOT practical solutions.
    He listed 29 practical specific policy promises in his last speech, what more do you want? He's being substantive.

  3. #53
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Yeah, let's slow down medical innovation and reduce the quality of care. There is a downside to everything, man.
    Hm... I don't see how medical innovation would be slowed down. Nobody's advocating letting government take over the medical research. And yes, quality of care might go down a bit for a some, but up a lot for those that didn't have any. And there are always better options for people with money.

    That said:
    I agree with LL to a large extent. I can't see how Obama can possibly manage to get it all done. Still, he's a step in the right direction in my opinion, and better a period or two with a toothless democrat following harmless democrat policies than another John Wayne. Well, better for the rest of the world at least. I don't really see how the American Empire can be saved long term no matter what it does.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  4. #54
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    There is no more efficient way to provide universal health care because there are no other viable ways of providing it. Define efficiency however you want. This is simple logic.
    You're dodging the question. It seems to me that you're defining efficiency to mean "access for all", but that's not what efficiency is. Efficiency is a ratio of input vs output.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    Hm... I don't see how medical innovation would be slowed down. Nobody's advocating letting government take over the medical research. And yes, quality of care might go down a bit for a some, but up a lot for those that didn't have any. And there are always better options for people with money.
    That's simple. If the research isn't driven by profit, you won't have efficient companies which demand results pumping money into it. Money=Personnel+Materials+Time

  6. #56
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    I've lived in a countries that have both.

    I had a better doctor in the States than I have in Canada. I could get in to actually *see* my doctor in the States.

    But because I currently live in Canada, I was actually able to afford to get biopsies done on skin lesions (aka "moles"). And the one on my face was done by a plastic surgeon.

    People have to wait so long for specialists here in Canada that they sometimes die while waiting to get in for that chemotherapy. It doesn't matter how much money you have; you'll still die waiting. It's to the point that Canadians who can afford it will go to other countries for medical treatment so that they can get it *then*.

    Yeah, great system.
    Exactly, exactly!!! Enyo, you are RIGHT on the money, here. And I can vouch 100%.

    Now the hospitals in Germany have another serious crisis: They cannot afford to pay too many doctors. And doctors in Germany make WAYYYYYY less than doctors in the USA (which would result in a further problem). So what happens? Doctors end up having to be on call for crazy amounts of hours, including surgeons. Tell me - if a surgeon has been on call and working for 24 hours straight - do you want this man performing surgery on YOU?!

    If you have a cold, you have to wait in the waiting room for 1 1/2 to 3 or more hours, even if you arrive first. God help you if you don't have an appointment and it is not a serious emergency - you might wait longer.

    When I was in the hospital with a completely numb leg, I had to wait three freaking hours or MORE - until they discovered - oh shit - this woman actually has pieces of vertebrae in her spinal column. Then, things progressed relatively quickly, thank goodness, and I was damned lucky because a doctor who should have been going home for the weekend volunteered to operate on me anyway, even though he could have left it til Monday. He was a good man. I was lucky. Not everyone would have done that, especially when doctors in Germany work 16-20 hour days and get like, HALF of doctors in the USA.

    This is what I'm talking about.
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  7. #57
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It seems to me that you're defining efficiency to mean "access for all", but that's not what efficiency is.
    Not at all. The market is more efficient at providing care for some, but the government would be the most efficient at providing it for all, since they are the only viable means to do so. It's a simple concept.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    People have to wait so long for specialists here in Canada that they sometimes die while waiting to get in for that chemotherapy. It doesn't matter how much money you have; you'll still die waiting. It's to the point that Canadians who can afford it will go to other countries for medical treatment so that they can get it *then*.
    But that's "fair".

  9. #59
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    He listed 29 practical specific policy promises in his last speech, what more do you want? He's being substantive.
    What good does specific policy *promises* mean if they are not doable???

    By the way, as a little aside, do you know what? In English grammar, promises are made in will future tense. You know why? Because the will future is used for things that are not 100% certain.

    So that should give you an idea regarding the English-speaking world's view on 'promises.' heh.

    In German, they are also made in our WILL future because our will future is used only for things that are 100% sure. Yeah. Cultural difference I guess.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Not at all. The market is more efficient at providing care for some, but the government would be the most efficient at providing it for all, since they are the only viable means to do so. It's a simple concept.
    Everyone but you seems to realize there are pros and cons of every possible solution. If you assess all the data properly, and still decide to be pro-socialism, that's fine. But don't ignore downsides.

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