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  1. #181
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Intervention still technically comes back to an exchange, especially in a Democratic environment where interveners are elected.
    But it is no longer completely voluntary between the buyer and seller when the state forces its way into the exchange, democratic or not.

    I'm done posting in this thread for now. I'm not satisfied with my answers and my excuse is that I was out waaaay too late last night and didn't get enough sleep. My mind is anything but clear.

  2. #182
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    We can't return to the past, but that doesn't mean we can't creatively rediscover what has been lost.

    I agree with you, Peguy. And I think we must return to a more people-centered form of government. I also think, sadly, that it will come to eventual destruction of what has grown so top-heavy in order for it to happen.

    I don't expect our next social change to be pleasant.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #183
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    My mind is clear. But it is difficult for me to see where looking at explanations for problems and trying to get on the same page regarding definitions is moving the conversation forward.

    At any rate I am off to a very communal and cooperative block party to catch up on the neighborhood news, eat goodies and get to know my new neighbors!

    Later.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  4. #184
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Obama's acceptance speech was beautiful. He's right about a lot of things that are wrong with the Bush doctrine.

    But there was one part that had me screaming at my TV in disbelief:

    How, may I ask, does he propose to cut taxes while introducing universal health care? I live in Canada now, but will be contacting the Embassy for my absentee voter ballot. Universal health care is the main reason that Canadians pay more taxes than Americans.

    Even if we stopped funneling billions of dollars into Iraq right this instant, we still cannot afford to pay for Universal Health Care without raising taxes.

    And this says nothing about the fact that our national debt is horrifying. We either need to take the steps to resolve it, or just hand our country over to China. No steps can be taken to reduce it if we reduce taxes and build universal health care. On the contrary, it can only go up.

    So, tell me, is he running for President of the United States, or Mayor of Crazytown? I can't see anything more from him right now than flawed logic and false promises.
    Heh, well this is American politics. McCain's plans are just as unrealistic. There are two main differences between him and Obama. 1) McCain wants to keep spending money in Iraq meaning he is even less fiscally responsible than Obama. 2) He is boring as hell to listen to, so people tune him out instead of realising that his economic plan is even more unrealistic and mostly helps the upper class.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  5. #185
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    2) He is boring as hell to listen to, so people tune him out instead of realising that his economic plan is even more unrealistic and mostly helps the upper class.
    I don't know that this part is true. McCain may be economically illiterate, but is way better than Obama on free trade, which (despite Big Labor rhetoric) actually benefits the vast majority of Americans. He is starting to hammer Obama on his proposed increased spending, too, which will resonate with some people. Obama should be making the point that the funding for the War is actually one of the biggest government spending programs we have, and he should at least attempt to put together a plan for a balanced budget.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #186
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't know that this part is true. McCain may be economically illiterate, but is way better than Obama on free trade, which (despite Big Labor rhetoric) actually benefits the vast majority of Americans. He is starting to hammer Obama on his proposed increased spending, too, which will resonate with some people. Obama should be making the point that the funding for the War is actually one of the biggest government spending programs we have, and he should at least attempt to put together a plan for a balanced budget.
    All of the big spending criticisms I have heard toward Obama apply to McCain too. The OP mentioned Obama's tax cuts, but he's going to pay for them by reversing a lot of Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy. McCain wants to keep them. Money wise their tax proposals are the same. The difference is who gets the benefit.

    Also Obama is going to spend money toward universal health care, but McCain proposes giving a $5000 tax credit to families without health care. He's going to have to come up with that money just like Obama is. And of course there is the war spending. When it comes to spending McCain has more to defend.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  7. #187
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I thought you believed in private property?
    Private property is a good thing. However, under the feudal system, private property didn't really exist.

    The lords had the power to take the land away from the fiefs at any time. The kings had the power to take the land away from the lords at any time. And, well, I bet if the pope really wanted to, he could have taken the land away from the kings at any time.

    And, well, I'm not entirely convinced that people should be private property. And that is what the fiefs basically were. (Let's put it this way: I don't recall which lord this was, but he reserved the right to sleep with a fief's new bride before the wedding. That sounds like the people themselves were darned near property to me.)

    Sorry I wasn't here to post sooner, lat. Had to do dinner at the in-laws.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  8. #188
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That actually was not true. Serfs were not slaves. A lord could not buy or sell them as would be implied with property. And a serf could refuse to work if his lord mistreated him.
    And do what? Starve? This is where the "basically" part comes in under lat's statement.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  9. #189
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    And do what? Starve? This is where the "basically" part comes in under lat's statement.
    Thanks, I was going to try to make that point, but like I said in my last post, today isn't my best day. Need sleep...

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Private property is a good thing. However, under the feudal system, private property didn't really exist.
    Actually it did exist, to a great extent.

    The lords had the power to take the land away from the fiefs at any time. The kings had the power to take the land away from the lords at any time. And, well, I bet if the pope really wanted to, he could have taken the land away from the kings at any time.
    Considering that power was highly decentralized during this time, perhaps in theory(actually no, but oh well) but not in actual practice. Lords, kings, fiefs, etc often defended their interests against higher powers all the times. We could even get into the struggle between lords and kings with the communes and free cities.

    To put it another way: no one person called all the shots. The power of one entity was was always counter-balanced by the power of others. The monarch's power was constantly constrained by the power of the aristocracy, the Church, free cities and other local power bases.

    (Let's put it this way: I don't recall which lord this was, but he reserved the right to sleep with a fief's new bride before the wedding. That sounds like the people themselves were darned near property to me.)
    I believe you got this from Braveheart.

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