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  1. #171
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm apparently a capitalist to, even though I'd call myself a socialist.
    I wonder whether "market socialism" is considered capitalism.

  2. #172
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Trade was not suppressed during Feudalism. There were plenty of merchants during the Medieval period, and later on even formed guilds to help each other out.

    It just wasn't a society that revolved around the Cash Nexus
    The main issue with feudalism is that common people were basically the property of their lords.

  3. #173
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The main issue with feudalism is that common people were basically the property of their lords.
    I thought you believed in private property?

  4. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The main issue with feudalism is that common people were basically the property of their lords.
    That actually was not true. Serfs were not slaves. A lord could not buy or sell them as would be implied with property. And a serf could refuse to work if his lord mistreated him.

  5. #175
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Then pratically every form of economics is capitalism.
    You're right in that socialism cannot eliminate voluntary exchange. No matter how much the state tries to circumvent it, voluntary exchange will still exist.

  6. #176
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Well, I think greed will always take precedence over altruism. And I agree that it is human nature.

    But society, as a macrocosm, can be likened to an infant which sometimes needs to be guided in a self-supporting direction. Who the "Daddy" is remains the problem.

    Too much of a "good thing" whether it be bombs or money seems self-destructive and misses the whole point of peace and personal contentment.

    Our prairie culture in the 1800s was an example of a social structure which worked for the benefit of the individual (with the usual railroad barons, land developers etc. thrown in as predictable.)

    The small towns, evenly spaced were "little countries" to themselves where every person had a purpose (Yes, even the town loony, but that's another discussion) and perhaps a measure of influence in the direction of their lives. Also a sense of belonging and satisfaction which appear lacking in our present society.

    I don't see a possibility of returning from whence we came. Growth is inevitable. There's "that" word again. I feel confident of the statements I've made as absolutes.

    We will eventually self-destruct as all democracies have done before us, the slate will be chaotically wiped clean and and hopefully we will come up with something better if humankind survives the overpopulation crisis and the multiple looming threats to our present way of life and very existence.

    (I personally, disliking the pessimistic viewpoint, believe that primary focus on economy at this point is errror. If we don't get our butts in gear to focus on people and quick-like the thit is soon to hit the fan.)

    Those of you who spend time looking into the ledgers may not be conscious of how precarious our continued way of life is at this point. And I do admire your expansive optimism.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #177
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I wonder whether "market socialism" is considered capitalism.
    In Lateralus's case, it presumably is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The main issue with feudalism is that common people were basically the property of their lords.
    Not any more than under current capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You're right in that socialism cannot eliminate voluntary exchange. No matter how much the state tries to circumvent it, voluntary exchange will still exist.
    I agree. But that's not only core to all economics, that's core to all society. It seems really silly to prove that captialism is absolute by simply stretching the word to include all transactions.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #178
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I know that I expanded the definition, but voluntary exchange is the heart of capitalism. Other economic systems are predicated on the assumption that outside intervention can be more efficient. Whatever is 'next' will just be another failed social experiment.

  9. #179
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I don't see a possibility of returning from whence we came. Growth is inevitable. There's "that" word again. I feel confident of the statements I've made as absolutes.
    We can't return to the past, but that doesn't mean we can't creatively rediscover what has been lost.

  10. #180
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I know that I expanded the definition, but voluntary exchange is the heart of capitalism. Other economic systems are predicated on the assumption that outside intervention can be more efficient. Whatever is 'next' will just be another failed social experiment.
    Intervention still technically comes back to an exchange, especially in a Democratic environment where interveners are elected.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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