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  1. #131
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Precisely. And the US looks awfully good and nice and superior because we spend oh so much money on health care.

    These aren't government expenses, though.

    Perhaps you should attempt to have more faith in your sources before you cite them. Never rely on a source that you yourself don't necessarily trust.
    I hear people complain about how we spend so much on health care all the time. Our politicians admit to it. It's not considered to be a good thing, because we don't even have universal care.

  2. #132
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I'd put more focus on disease prevention, look at over-prescription in the US (more people are being prescribed meds, at younger ages, for more conditions), let law makers negotiate costs in the same way insurance companies do....things like this. The stuff pharm companies don't want us to do.
    How would you focus on disease prevention? What do you mean "look at over-prescription", and what would this accomplish? How would law makers be any better at negotiating costs than insurance companies?

    The stuff pharm companies don't want us to do? Did you hear that on a late-night informercial?

  3. #133
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    How would you focus on disease prevention? What do you mean "look at over-prescription", and what would this accomplish? How would law makers be any better at negotiating costs than insurance companies?

    The stuff pharm companies don't want us to do? Did you hear that on a late-night informercial?
    lat, i'm not running for office. is this how you act when you have no point to make?

  4. #134
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    lat, i'm not running for office. is this how you act when you have no point to make?
    I asked those questions for a specific reason. It's great to have goals, but are those goals that you can actually accomplish? And I want to know what tactics you will use to accomplish those goals. That's vitally important to the discussion. Because if you cannot actually accomplish those goals, then what's the point of your program? If you can't accomplish those goals, you're not much different than people protesting for 'world peace'.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    One serious critique I have of the democratic system, at least as it currently stands, is that it is really not flexible enough to adapt quickly to changes in economic and political climate. Okay, in a way, that's good because we should have a stable system that is not whimsical. However, when it is so engrained that there can be no kind of meaningful change, that's a problem.
    My idea of a good democratic system is the one that governs Switzerland. From an American standpoint my vision of democracy is largely Jeffersonian in nature.

  6. #136
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I asked those questions for a specific reason. It's great to have goals, but are those goals that you can actually accomplish? And I want to know what tactics you will use to accomplish those goals. That's vitally important to the discussion. Because if you cannot actually accomplish those goals, then what's the point of your program? If you can't accomplish those goals, you're not much different than people protesting for 'world peace'.
    Disease prevention - spend more money on testing and vaccination. More diseases prevented = less money being spent on costly treatment.

    Over-prescription - take away the doctor-pharm company relationship for the most part, take away incentives for doctors to over prescribe when not needed, regulate pharmaceutical marketing. I had a psychiatrist brag to me about how the more he prescribes this certain drug, the more free dinners and free shit he gets.

    Price negotiation - Get rid of laws that prevent federal government from negotiating lower drug costs. Law makers have incentive to get us lower costs so they can brag about it and get re-elected. If they are half good at what they do, they will try. Can't hurt.


    Do you disagree with doing any of this?

  7. #137
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    The thing about health care is this:

    If you have no coverage, you're going to get your paycheck eviscerated by any sort of disease that comes your way, whether it's because you can't come to work (I know my internship had a rule against coming to work sick), or because you have to pay for expensive medicine, or whatnot, because paying an insurance premium when you're not getting sick is just far too expensive as well.

    Universal healthcare IMO is a sensible idea because: everyone (eventually) gets sick. The reason health premiums are as expensive as they are is that there are less people pooling money into the insurance funds, because it's expensive. For instance, consider a health insurance firm with only one person under its policy. That'd more or less be exactly like no health insurance, because the only person paying for their health claims is that one person.

    So on the other side, you have everyone paying premiums, so therefore, the aggregate premium decreases as you get more and more people. I realize that there is a counterargument that if everyone gets sick and everyone pays premiums and everyone files claims, it may be like every man or woman for him or herself, but that's when you raise premiums on a case by case basis. For instance, if a reckless teenager has a history of car accidents, his premiums will be more than those of a 30-year-old defensive driver's.

    Frankly, I think universal health care, IF DONE CORRECTLY, can be a good thing.

    And in my opinion, socializing that which has universal benefit is worth doing. So therefore socializing health care and education in most cases (those that would use education to aid terrorists can go to hell) is something worth doing.

    It's about positive network externalities. Tax vices such as smoking and prostitution, and socialize that with positive social benefits.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  8. #138
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Disease prevention - spend more money on testing and vaccination. More diseases prevented = less money being spent on costly treatment.
    I've never had a cold or flu vaccination. Would you advocate forcing me to be vaccinated? And if I refused, what would you do to me?

    Over-prescription - take away the doctor-pharm company relationship for the most part, take away incentives for doctors to over prescribe when not needed, regulate pharmaceutical marketing. I had a psychiatrist brag to me about how the more he prescribes this certain drug, the more free dinners and free shit he gets.
    How would you take away the doctor-pharm relationship? Make it illegal for them to speak to each other? Isn't that a violation of the first amendment?

    There are incentives to over-prescribe when not needed? That's unethical and I would assume that would be grounds for revocation of their medical license. That psychiatrist should lose his license.

    All that said, how much would this reduce costs? It seems to me that this would be like dropping a pebble in the ocean.

    Price negotiation - Get rid of laws that prevent federal government from negotiating lower drug costs. Law makers have incentive to get us lower costs so they can brag about it and get re-elected. If they are half good at what they do, they will try. Can't hurt.
    We vote in law makers to be politicians, not businessmen. This seems like its opening the door for a huge amount of corruption. Besides that, law makers are spending other peoples' money, not their own. By definition, they won't be as efficient as someone spending their own money.

    Do you disagree with doing any of this?
    I don't disagree with the ideals. I just don't think government can accomplish any of this. All of your ideas involve reducing competition (by limiting choice), in some form. That will result in rising costs.

  9. #139
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    The reason health premiums are as expensive as they are is that there are less people pooling money into the insurance funds, because it's expensive. For instance, consider a health insurance firm with only one person under its policy. That'd more or less be exactly like no health insurance, because the only person paying for their health claims is that one person.
    You have to understand the underlying concept behind insurance to understand why comprehensive health insurance is a flawed concept. Insurance works only in situations where there is both a catastrophic loss and that event is random. An example of a random and catastrophic event is a tornado hitting your home (random) and destroying it (catastrophic). When these concepts are adhered to, insurance works wonderfully. If health insurance was limited to catastrophic events (like a cancer diagnosis), it would be much cheaper. The problem is, comprehensive health insurance does nothing of the sort. It covers scheduled, non-catastrophic events, like check-ups. It's conceptually the same as insuring your home to cover the cost of cutting your grass or doing your dishes.

    Imagine how expensive food would be if we had food insurance. I hope that never happens...

    I could have written a better post, but I'm too hungry to bother with it right now.

  10. #140
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I've never had a cold or flu vaccination. Would you advocate forcing me to be vaccinated? And if I refused, what would you do to me?


    How would you take away the doctor-pharm relationship? Make it illegal for them to speak to each other? Isn't that a violation of the first amendment?

    There are incentives to over-prescribe when not needed? That's unethical and I would assume that would be grounds for revocation of their medical license. That psychiatrist should lose his license.

    All that said, how much would this reduce costs? It seems to me that this would be like dropping a pebble in the ocean.


    We vote in law makers to be politicians, not businessmen. This seems like its opening the door for a huge amount of corruption. Besides that, law makers are spending other peoples' money, not their own. By definition, they won't be as efficient as someone spending their own money.


    I don't disagree with the ideals. I just don't think government can accomplish any of this. All of your ideas involve reducing competition (by limiting choice), in some form. That will result in rising costs.
    Here is an estimate on how much money letting the feds negotiate prices could save, just with senior medical care. What if the Federal Government Negotiated Pharmaceutical Prices for Seniors? An Estimate of National Savings.

    Here is an article on financial incentives physicians get for filling out prescriptions (you have to sign up for the site though): Financial Incentives for Physicians in Managed Care - Journal Watch Psychiatry

    If you agree with the ideals, why not slowly work towards them instead of going with the status-quo?

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