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  1. #111
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Well I'm not sure how credible your theory is, the healthier nations can do it for less, yet you are so certain we can't.
    I already stated how you can make your point, but you completely ignore that and continue to compare apples to oranges. Read up on this.

  2. #112
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    My point is that costs for everything are going to rise. That's a certainty. So it's a matter of where we set our priorities.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #113
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I already stated how you can make your point, but you completely ignore that and continue to compare apples to oranges. Read up on this.
    If you wanted to make your point, you would explain why America can't do what the rest of the industrial world has already done.

  4. #114
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Why can we afford the war in Iraq, you know - the five month war - and we can't afford health care?
    We can't. That's why we're borrowing the money from China to pay for it.:rolli:
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  5. #115
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    If you wanted to make your point, you would explain why America can't do what the rest of the industrial world has already done.
    If you want to maintain the current quality of care (and not have people waiting for hours in an ambulance because there's a minimum amount of time that they can wait in a hospital before that hospital is breaking laws of standards of care a la Britain), it will cost more. If you want the treatment to be readily available (as it is now) without people dying while waiting, it will cost more.

    Basically, you have two options: health care for everyone with a delay, or health care readily available for those who can get it. (Again, I have a hard time associating it with cash flow, simply because my family never lacked for health care, even when we lacked in funds.)
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  6. #116
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    My point is that costs for everything are going to rise. That's a certainty. So it's a matter of where we set our priorities.
    Actually, it's not a certainty. Technological advances reduce costs over time. Look at televisions and computers for obvious examples (compare those to MRI machines and pharmaceuticals). There are two major areas where this has not occurred, education and health care. And those are the two major areas where there is the most government intervention.

  7. #117
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    If you wanted to make your point, you would explain why America can't do what the rest of the industrial world has already done.
    The US can do what the rest of the world has done, which is to provide universal health care at enormous cost. Your argument was that universal health care reduces costs, but you haven't proven that point. You keep comparing costs in other nations to the US, and that's flawed methodology. You need to compare costs within those nations, both before and after universal health care.

  8. #118
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    If you want to maintain the current quality of care (and not have people waiting for hours in an ambulance because there's a minimum amount of time that they can wait in a hospital before that hospital is breaking laws of standards of care a la Britain), it will cost more. If you want the treatment to be readily available (as it is now) without people dying while waiting, it will cost more.

    Basically, you have two options: health care for everyone with a delay, or health care readily available for those who can get it. (Again, I have a hard time associating it with cash flow, simply because my family never lacked for health care, even when we lacked in funds.)
    We all hear stories of long lines and other problems in europe and canada, but it's not showing in their health stats.

    The US is a rich country, we can afford to have universal health care without much of problems other nations have with it. Of course there is the fact that we are a fairly unhealthy nation to begin with, so maybe we need more health care than most nations.

  9. #119
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Actually, it's not a certainty. Technological advances reduce costs over time. Look at televisions and computers for obvious examples (compare those to MRI machines and pharmaceuticals). There are two major areas where this has not occurred, education and health care. And those are the two major areas where there is the most government intervention.
    This is one of these cases where I love Glenn Beck. He loves to point out that things seldom, if ever, get better with government intervention. Free markets and capitalism are the greatest way to keep costs down because there's so much competition. If you can build a better widget, and you can build it cheaper and faster than the next guy, and then sell it for less, you'll make more money while the consumer will spend less money.

    Reduce government control and let the market sort itself out.

    I <3 Glenn Beck. (Which is funny, since I'm socially liberal but fiscally conservative.)
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  10. #120
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    We all hear stories of long lines and other problems in europe and canada, but it's not showing in their health stats.

    The US is a rich country, we can afford to have universal health care without much of problems other nations have with it.
    Which stats are you using? WHO? Their stats rate by the availability to everyone, not the quality or wait. A talented statistician can make those stats say whatever was needed to further an agenda.

    I can't speak to what happens in Europe, because I don't live there. But I can speak to what I personally see happening in Canada. There are brutal waits.

    A family friend had to wait a year for a doctor to biopsy her thyroid when she had a tumor. This mass was so large that it was visible in her neck, constricted her breathing and bent her windpipe, and took away her voice. She had to go to the emergency room many times because her tumor was strangling her and she couldn't breathe.

    This is a reality, not an anecdote.

    Tell me, though, if the US is such a rich country, why do we have a national debt in the trillions? Canada doesn't have a national debt. Canada has a surplus.

    If you really want to have a national health care system that *works*, then pay off the debt and cut government spending, first. But I'd really rather see it get more capitalist and less nanny state, thanks.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

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