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  1. #101
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    The strang thing about Canada's helth care is that to my knowledge, cosmetic surgery is free but pills arn't. But doctors arn't trained for non-life saving cosmetic surgery because it's a waste of resources, so you'd get one crappy face lift anyway.

    And we need more doctors. The system would work more efficiently if we trained more doctors. It sucks because it's possible if we just made more medical schools. Their are tonnes of people who apply for medical school who are good enough but don't make it just because there arn't enough slots in the schools to teach everyone.
    Cosmetic surgery is free to a point. There are cosmetic surgeons out there who can do face lifts and boob jobs. You'll have to pay for the ones that are done just for vanity (breast implants, face lifts, and tummy tucks, for example), but some are covered. My biopsy on my face was done by a plastic surgeon, because my family doctor (who has done the rest of my biopsies) didn't want to leave me with a huge scar. If I wanted a breast reduction, it would be covered because large breasts = back problems and so forth.

    My doctor back in the States that I adored so much is actually Canadian.

    As for the lack of doctors, how much of it is due to funding? How much of it is due to the fact that some of our Canadian doctors are leaving the country because they can make more money elsewhere?

    But when it comes to quality of medical care, I'd only had two doctors in my entire life when I lived in the States. They are far superior to the doctors that I've had here. I haven't heard much good about any of the doctors in town, either. :P
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    How is it not as high quality? Our doctors get the same training. Waits are longer for things that involve expensive and complex ecuipment, yes, but at the end of the day I think it works better than only a few people getting it. It's a human right, I would be mortified if other people couldn't get what they have the right to while I could because of money.
    That's good on paper, but the wait could mean life and death. For example, if person needs an MRI to determine if they have cancer, any delay could allow the disease to progress to the incurable stage.

    Another problem is that there won't be enough money to sustain such a system as the population ages.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    That's good on paper, but the wait could mean life and death. For example, if person needs an MRI to determine if they have cancer, any delay could allow the disease to progress to the incurable stage.

    Another problem is that there won't be enough money to sustain such a system as the population ages.
    Yup. I'd also like to point out that it's first come, first serve, period. I had a CT scan done for my migraines. There's a wait list for them. Once you're signed up, you're signed up. You don't get bumped back because someone has something that may be more life-threatening.

    If I'm up for an MRI because I may have a torn ligament in my knee, and after I'm already signed up, someone needs an MRI because they may have cancer, then that's just too bad. I was first, so they'll have to wait. (Unless there's a cancellation. But do those cancellations occur because the needing party just up and died or something?)

    While it's fair that in terms of the patient's monetary resources, I hardly think it's fair that my torn ligament gets priority over someone's possible cancer just because I got in line first.

    (This is from an outpatient perspective, only. I'm pretty sure that if you're admitted and they think that you need an MRI right then like on House, you'll get one. :P)
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  4. #104
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Wow some interesting points were made in this thread. Especially by Little Linguist, keep the good work up.

    Unfortunately, Im not entirely able to contribute much at this time. Im worn out from the various discussions I had about church-state relations and whatnot.

    I will throw in my two cents and state that yes the welfare state is an inefficient system and in the end cannot be sustained. Obama's policies for "change" are largely just further developments of the kind of system America has lived under since FDR's New Deal.

    If Obama really was interested in change, he'd propose starting the process in dismantling the system before it collaspes under it's own weight. Unfortunately the only candidate to propose such a thing(Ron Paul) was snuffed out by the media and the political elites.
    Thank you for your support, hon! I agree with your claims about the extension of FDR's New Deal; although the system was essential at that time to get the country out of a slump in a democratic manner, what often happens is that people do not adapt the system to changing times. That resulted in a great deal of abuse of the system until folks ended up reforming at the final hour. Then, again, they cannot react to changes, so a lot of people suffer.

    One serious critique I have of the democratic system, at least as it currently stands, is that it is really not flexible enough to adapt quickly to changes in economic and political climate. Okay, in a way, that's good because we should have a stable system that is not whimsical. However, when it is so engrained that there can be no kind of meaningful change, that's a problem.

    I was not surprised when Ron Paul got weeded out. You see, it is not in the interest of the system to have someone who is going to impose REAL change.

    That's why I am so skeptical of this Obama guy because IF he WERE serious and his change COULD be implemented, HE would have been weeded out a long time ago as well. *shrugs*
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  5. #105
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes there is and it goes by countless names, depending on which area of the political spectrum you decide to look. Within Anglo-Catholic circles it was referred to as Distributism, within German Catholic circles it was called Solidarism, within many Left-wing circles it was called Mutualism, within some American Republican circles it was called Democratic Capitalism. Some enviromentalists call it Bioregionalism. And numerous other names.

    The basic premises of such a system is a free but fair market, and a market built upon the foundation of local-based economies - as opposed to an abstract global corporate economy. Now that doesn't mean international trade is non-existant, far from it. Rather the notion is that local economic needs have to be taken care of first before one considers global trade.

    The economist E.F. Schumacher referred to this as "economics as if people matter". And he also summarised its creed as follows: "small is beautiful".

    That's about as simple as I can explain it at the moment, but so much more is involved.

    If you want, I can post some interesting stuff on this if you're interested in further exploring it.
    Yes, I would like some more reading material on the matter. It always helps to get different perspectives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    You're assuming that they're equally bad. Having lived in both, I can say that I honestly don't feel that they are.

    My parents were not well-off when they were still alive. They're both dead now because of their health problems, but they were able to get the treatment that they had needed, with all of their limbs attached.

    Had my diabetic father needed the angioplasty treatment that he'd received in the States to prevent amputation, but lived in Canada, I'm confident that he would not have received in on time. Because of the relationship that he had with our family physician, and our family physician's relationship with my father's surgeons, he was able to get the treatment that he needed.

    Our family physician used his connections to improve my father's quality of life and keep him alive another eight years longer.

    We weren't dirt poor welfare cases, but we were definitely trailer trash from the south. I've never known anyone who died because they couldn't afford treatment. I know of people who have been near death because of the wait list in Canada.
    Good points. I'm sorry your parents died, but I'm sure it opened up your perspective to the pros and cons of the system. Thank you for sharing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Really? I can't say that I would agree to that. If it were true that Americans don't get treatment unless they can pay, my father would have never met his grandson. My mother would have never met her great granddaughter.

    I firmly believe that having a strong relationship with your physician can help, regardless of your financial status. (Our family doctor has now treated five generations of my family.) While my doctor in Canada tries, that connection is not there.

    My Canadian doctor has tried for five years to treat my migraines. He's tried various drugs. The only one that actually worked was one that he never should have prescribed, because it was contraindicated for my asthma that he'd also treated me for. Which sucks, because I found relieve from a drug that will not be re-prescribed.
    There are some strange cases in which people cannot be covered by insurance. The very poor are supported by Medicare (or is it Medicaid? I always confuse them!!!) and people with good jobs often have great medical benefits. But what about people who have three part time jobs with no benefits and not enough money to pay for private health insurance? Or the people who are trying to get a start as freelancers who cannot afford health insurance yet? These people are cut out by the system. Also some HMOs are really anal retentive regarding what you can do and where you can go and what kind of treatment they cover. *shrugs*

    On the other hand, I am not sure if this needs to be solved by universal health care. My first inclination would be to have some kind of hybrid system, but I don't know if that is really feasible or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    I didn't find the fairness to be as important. I've lived with both systems. Have you? I wasn't the one who stated that they were equally bad.

    Both have their pros and cons.
    Sure, fairness is essential. HOWEVER, how do you define 'fair' in the case of the health care system, and how do you plan to assure this 'fairness'? That is the really essential question here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And both suck for their different reasons.
    Heh! Agreed. That's why I think some kind of hybrid would be better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Another country, perhaps, like Canadians do here?
    Hmmm...

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    But are your circumstances typical? It's not reassuring to have to depend on charity when your health is at risk.

    For people like yourself and myself, who can afford it, there is no doubt that the American system is superior. However, I'm arguing from the social policy perspective. How do we create a system to make sure the poor get the care they need? Or do we just say "buzz off, bum."
    I'm surely not advocating that anyone should die merely because they do not have the money. However, I am advising you to do a very, very intense cost-benefit/SWOT analysis before you go off in favor of something TOTALLY different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    My only experience with the working poor (and any other experience in American health care) is in the state of Florida, as that's where I spent my first 23 years. That being said, Medicaid takes care of quite a few of the needs of the working poor, and it honestly seems to fall right on par with Canadian health care.

    Maybe Medicaid should be broadened a bit more in terms of who and what it covers in order to help the working poor? Even so, though, it should be a temporary measure for the adults in the working poor class, as it is part of a welfare system. It should be a hand up, not a hand out.

    FWIW, though, my Canadian health care is not free. While taxes that we all pay up here do subsidize it, I also have to pay MSP, which is our fee for partaking in the Canadian health care. For families making $30k/yr or more, it costs us $53/month per adult. (Or something like that. The husband pays the bills.) It does not cover vision or dental. Most Canadians have the option of getting extended medical of various quality through our employers, just like most Americans with full-time work have the option of getting some kind of health care through their work. The difference is, while the insurance through American employers covers everything with varying co-pays and deductibles, our extended in Canada is just for prescription drugs, dental, and vision.

    I do have to pay my chiropractor (which is the only thing that has helped make the migraines that my Canadian doctor has not been able to treat) out of pocket. Neither our extended or MSP will cover it.
    Right, right, right!!!! You should reform the current system, of course!!!! But that doesn't mean throwing out the whole system in favor of a totally new one where the foundation isn't there. Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by GZA View Post
    How is it not as high quality? Our doctors get the same training. Waits are longer for things that involve expensive and complex ecuipment, yes, but at the end of the day I think it works better than only a few people getting it. It's a human right, I would be mortified if other people couldn't get what they have the right to while I could because of money.

    The strang thing about Canada's helth care is that to my knowledge, cosmetic surgery is free but pills arn't. But doctors arn't trained for non-life saving cosmetic surgery because it's a waste of resources, so you'd get one crappy face lift anyway.

    And we need more doctors. The system would work more efficiently if we trained more doctors. It sucks because it's possible if we just made more medical schools. Their are tonnes of people who apply for medical school who are good enough but don't make it just because there arn't enough slots in the schools to teach everyone.
    Yeah, like I said, both systems have to make some serious reforms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I interupt this thoughtful and serious debate to interject a message from the Universe.

    Regardless of who our new president may be, the first words of his acceptance speech are certain to be:

    "Why am in in this handbasket and where are you taking me?"




    I am an Intuiter.
    (I am not a pessimist. I am not a pessimist. I am not a pessimist.)

    Hehehe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Cosmetic surgery is free to a point. There are cosmetic surgeons out there who can do face lifts and boob jobs. You'll have to pay for the ones that are done just for vanity (breast implants, face lifts, and tummy tucks, for example), but some are covered. My biopsy on my face was done by a plastic surgeon, because my family doctor (who has done the rest of my biopsies) didn't want to leave me with a huge scar. If I wanted a breast reduction, it would be covered because large breasts = back problems and so forth.

    My doctor back in the States that I adored so much is actually Canadian.

    As for the lack of doctors, how much of it is due to funding? How much of it is due to the fact that some of our Canadian doctors are leaving the country because they can make more money elsewhere?

    But when it comes to quality of medical care, I'd only had two doctors in my entire life when I lived in the States. They are far superior to the doctors that I've had here. I haven't heard much good about any of the doctors in town, either. :P
    Good points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    That's good on paper, but the wait could mean life and death. For example, if person needs an MRI to determine if they have cancer, any delay could allow the disease to progress to the incurable stage.

    Another problem is that there won't be enough money to sustain such a system as the population ages.
    RIGHT. Aging population is a serious problem for universal health care for two reasons: a) They don't pay taxes, so they don't support the system. (i.e. they don't pay as many taxes, anyway). b) As they age, they need more medical care.

    Heh. Everyone wanted to extend life expectancy, and see what it has brought us??? More social concerns than you can shake a stick at. Yeah, folks, this is what happens when you toy with nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Yup. I'd also like to point out that it's first come, first serve, period. I had a CT scan done for my migraines. There's a wait list for them. Once you're signed up, you're signed up. You don't get bumped back because someone has something that may be more life-threatening.

    If I'm up for an MRI because I may have a torn ligament in my knee, and after I'm already signed up, someone needs an MRI because they may have cancer, then that's just too bad. I was first, so they'll have to wait. (Unless there's a cancellation. But do those cancellations occur because the needing party just up and died or something?)

    While it's fair that in terms of the patient's monetary resources, I hardly think it's fair that my torn ligament gets priority over someone's possible cancer just because I got in line first.

    (This is from an outpatient perspective, only. I'm pretty sure that if you're admitted and they think that you need an MRI right then like on House, you'll get one. :P)
    Yikes!
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  6. #106
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Why can we afford the war in Iraq, you know - the five month war - and we can't afford health care?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #107
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    We can't afford either. Besides that, eliminating the effect of competition will drive health care costs higher. So as expensive as health care is, right now, creating a universal health care system will make it even more expensive.

  8. #108
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    We can't afford either. Besides that, eliminating the effect of competition will drive health care costs higher. So as expensive as health care is, right now, creating a universal health care system will make it even more expensive.
    Per person, we spend more on health care than every nation in the world, which includes all the nations with universal health care.

  9. #109
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Per person, we spend more on health care than every nation in the world, which includes all the nations with universal health care.
    That's irrelevant. It will still drive costs higher.

    If you wanted to properly refute my point, you would have to show how universal health care has lowered costs in nations like Britain, Germany, and France.

    The government could set price controls to try to stop the rising costs, but that would only cause shortages (waiting lists). That's Economics 101.

  10. #110
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That's irrelevant. It will still drive costs higher.

    If you wanted to properly refute my point, you would have to show how universal health care has lowered costs in nations like Britain, Germany, and France.

    The government could set price controls to try to stop the rising costs, but that will only cause shortages (waiting lists). That's Economics 101.
    Well I'm not sure how credible your theory is, the healthier nations can do it for less, yet you are so certain we can't.

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