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  1. #91
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    On a more positive note, I wonder if there isn't some kind of middle ground - something that would ensure quality and competition while allowing everyone to get some form of health care while avoiding bureaucratic nonsense. It'd be something to ponder.

    What do you think????
    Yes there is and it goes by countless names, depending on which area of the political spectrum you decide to look. Within Anglo-Catholic circles it was referred to as Distributism, within German Catholic circles it was called Solidarism, within many Left-wing circles it was called Mutualism, within some American Republican circles it was called Democratic Capitalism. Some enviromentalists call it Bioregionalism. And numerous other names.

    The basic premises of such a system is a free but fair market, and a market built upon the foundation of local-based economies - as opposed to an abstract global corporate economy. Now that doesn't mean international trade is non-existant, far from it. Rather the notion is that local economic needs have to be taken care of first before one considers global trade.

    The economist E.F. Schumacher referred to this as "economics as if people matter". And he also summarised its creed as follows: "small is beautiful".

    That's about as simple as I can explain it at the moment, but so much more is involved.

    If you want, I can post some interesting stuff on this if you're interested in further exploring it.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    If you have 2 equally bad system, you're suggesting that the fair one is not preferable?
    You're assuming that they're equally bad. Having lived in both, I can say that I honestly don't feel that they are.

    My parents were not well-off when they were still alive. They're both dead now because of their health problems, but they were able to get the treatment that they had needed, with all of their limbs attached.

    Had my diabetic father needed the angioplasty treatment that he'd received in the States to prevent amputation, but lived in Canada, I'm confident that he would not have received in on time. Because of the relationship that he had with our family physician, and our family physician's relationship with my father's surgeons, he was able to get the treatment that he needed.

    Our family physician used his connections to improve my father's quality of life and keep him alive another eight years longer.

    We weren't dirt poor welfare cases, but we were definitely trailer trash from the south. I've never known anyone who died because they couldn't afford treatment. I know of people who have been near death because of the wait list in Canada.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  3. #93
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    The Canadian health care system ensures that everyone gets access to mediocre service. The American one rations higher quality service to only the people who can afford it. Both system sucks.
    Really? I can't say that I would agree to that. If it were true that Americans don't get treatment unless they can pay, my father would have never met his grandson. My mother would have never met her great granddaughter.

    I firmly believe that having a strong relationship with your physician can help, regardless of your financial status. (Our family doctor has now treated five generations of my family.) While my doctor in Canada tries, that connection is not there.

    My Canadian doctor has tried for five years to treat my migraines. He's tried various drugs. The only one that actually worked was one that he never should have prescribed, because it was contraindicated for my asthma that he'd also treated me for. Which sucks, because I found relieve from a drug that will not be re-prescribed.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  4. #94
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    Enyo appears to be asserting that fairness is unimportant.
    I didn't find the fairness to be as important. I've lived with both systems. Have you? I wasn't the one who stated that they were equally bad.

    Both have their pros and cons.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  5. #95
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Both have their pros and cons.
    And both suck for their different reasons.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Go outside the system to what?
    Another country, perhaps, like Canadians do here?
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    Really? I can't say that I would agree to that. If it were true that Americans don't get treatment unless they can pay, my father would have never met his grandson. My mother would have never met her great granddaughter.

    I firmly believe that having a strong relationship with your physician can help, regardless of your financial status.
    But are your circumstances typical? It's not reassuring to have to depend on charity when your health is at risk.

    For people like yourself and myself, who can afford it, there is no doubt that the American system is superior. However, I'm arguing from the social policy perspective. How do we create a system to make sure the poor get the care they need? Or do we just say "buzz off, bum."

  8. #98
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    But are your circumstances typical? It's not reassuring to have to depend on charity when your health is at risk.

    For people like yourself and myself, who can afford it, there is no doubt that the American system is superior. However, I'm arguing from the social policy perspective. How do we create a system to make sure the poor get the care they need? Or do we just say "buzz off, bum."
    My only experience with the working poor (and any other experience in American health care) is in the state of Florida, as that's where I spent my first 23 years. That being said, Medicaid takes care of quite a few of the needs of the working poor, and it honestly seems to fall right on par with Canadian health care.

    Maybe Medicaid should be broadened a bit more in terms of who and what it covers in order to help the working poor? Even so, though, it should be a temporary measure for the adults in the working poor class, as it is part of a welfare system. It should be a hand up, not a hand out.

    FWIW, though, my Canadian health care is not free. While taxes that we all pay up here do subsidize it, I also have to pay MSP, which is our fee for partaking in the Canadian health care. For families making $30k/yr or more, it costs us $53/month per adult. (Or something like that. The husband pays the bills.) It does not cover vision or dental. Most Canadians have the option of getting extended medical of various quality through our employers, just like most Americans with full-time work have the option of getting some kind of health care through their work. The difference is, while the insurance through American employers covers everything with varying co-pays and deductibles, our extended in Canada is just for prescription drugs, dental, and vision.

    I do have to pay my chiropractor (which is the only thing that has helped make the migraines that my Canadian doctor has not been able to treat) out of pocket. Neither our extended or MSP will cover it.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  9. #99
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    The Canadian health care system ensures that everyone gets access to mediocre service. The American one rations higher quality service to only the people who can afford it. Both system sucks.
    How is it not as high quality? Our doctors get the same training. Waits are longer for things that involve expensive and complex ecuipment, yes, but at the end of the day I think it works better than only a few people getting it. It's a human right, I would be mortified if other people couldn't get what they have the right to while I could because of money.

    The strang thing about Canada's helth care is that to my knowledge, cosmetic surgery is free but pills arn't. But doctors arn't trained for non-life saving cosmetic surgery because it's a waste of resources, so you'd get one crappy face lift anyway.

    And we need more doctors. The system would work more efficiently if we trained more doctors. It sucks because it's possible if we just made more medical schools. Their are tonnes of people who apply for medical school who are good enough but don't make it just because there arn't enough slots in the schools to teach everyone.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I interupt this thoughtful and serious debate to interject a message from the Universe.

    Regardless of who our new president may be, the first words of his acceptance speech are certain to be:

    "Why am in in this handbasket and where are you taking me?"




    I am an Intuiter.
    (I am not a pessimist. I am not a pessimist. I am not a pessimist.)

    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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