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View Poll Results: Which do you support?

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  • "In God We Trust" on our currency

    3 6.98%
  • "One Nation Under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance

    0 0%
  • Both

    7 16.28%
  • Neither

    33 76.74%
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Results 111 to 120 of 151

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    *waits for the day when church bulletins have "in money we trust" printed in them*
    I c wut u did ther!

  2. #112
    Senior Thread Terminator Aerithria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That was largely meant that there was to be no official state-sanctioned religion. And the historical context for that was the religious conflicts that took place in Europe. It did, nor did it ever, mean that religion was absolutely forbidden in the public sphere. So it's really more about the government's involvement with religion than vice versa, which is what the concept of seperation originally was devised to address.

    The importance of religion in not only the founding but the preservation of American democracy has been more than well documented. Anybody who doesn't recognise this doesn't understand shit about the Ameican political tradition.
    No one said anything about religion being banned, they just wanted to keep it out of governmental procedures. Oh, and you said about 90% of the American population is Christian, right? So we're just supposed to ignore the other thirty million people that constitutes the 10%? Like Didums said, for the Christain population, it really doesn't mean much for it not to be there, but for other religions, it asserts a message that says their religion (or lack thereof) is lesser than Christianity. I bet the Pagan population put "In Goddess we trust" on the money, there'd be a revolt.

    Oh, and just to be fair, I admit that I don't know a lot about the American political tradition, being Canadian and all. But really, why does tradition even matter? Just because it was done one way in the past doesn't mean that it shouldn't be improved upon. That's like saying "Well, our ancestors were religious supremists, so in an interest to uphold what our ancestors thought, we're going to continue being religious supremists, even though we generally agree that supremism is wrong."

    EDIT: Oh, and according to statistics taken in 2000, the percentage of Americans who were Christian is closer to 77%. I'm working on getting more recent statistics, but I bet it's less than 90%.

    EDIT 2: 2007 statistics say it's 78.4% that are Christian. I can't find any 2008 ones.
    [insert funny quote/saying/etc.]

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The importance of religion in not only the founding but the preservation of American democracy has been more than well documented. Anybody who doesn't recognise this doesn't understand shit about the Ameican political tradition.
    Since you simply made an baseless assertion, I can simply refute it by saying "FALSE. Move to the back of the class!"

  4. #114
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's basically what I just said. Congress cannot establish an official religion. That doesn't mean religion is irrelevant to our political understandings.

    In fact Alexis de Tocqueville noted in Democracy in America that seperation of church and state actually made religion MORE important to American society and government.
    Okay. But... I don't care. I don't care that the country was founded upon Christian values. I don't care that most people in the country are Christian. Shall I start quoting James Madison, president of the United States, Christian who talked about tyranny of the majority?

    I. Do. Not. Care. I don't think that God belongs on our currency or in the pledge of allegiange. Why not? Because these things represent me. And they're doing it falsely. I understand that most people in the country are Christian. The government and its domains are not.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  5. #115
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    I c wut u did ther!
    I's brilliant!



    Though I think that line has been crossed (I'd know if I bothered to go to church I suppose!)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    I's brilliant!



    Though I think that line has been crossed (I'd know if I bothered to go to church I suppose!)
    Nonono, you didn't cross the line, we're NT, there is no line

  7. #117
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    Nonono, you didn't cross the line, we're NT, there is no line
    the line for the church- they're SJs and CARE about things like invisible lines and such! (like, did Emily Post say it was rude to ask for money or not?... moral dilemma)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    the line for the church- they're SJs and CARE about things like invisible lines and such! (like, did Emily Post say it was rude to ask for money or not?... moral dilemma)
    hehe, I take the South Park stance: "Either Everything is okay to poke fun at, or Nothing is."

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerithria View Post
    No one said anything about religion being banned, they just wanted to keep it out of governmental procedures.
    And my argument is that's impossible to achieve. Even if you bann "sacral" religion from government, government still has to rely upon "civil" religion to maintain connections between the people and the government. As history shows, the more God is banned from government, the more the government starts to assume the role of God.

    When God is banned, then the state is accountable only to itself. Its actions cannot be held to a higher standard.

    Oh, and you said about 90% of the American population is Christian, right? So we're just supposed to ignore the other thirty million people that constitutes the 10%?
    They have religious freedom under the 1st Ammendment. And yes they should be treated with considerable respect. But why should the beliefs and customs of 90+% of the people be denied such to make sure the 10% isn't "offended" or whatnot? That's not democracy.

    Like Didums said, for the Christain population, it really doesn't mean much for it not to be there, but for other religions, it asserts a message that says their religion (or lack thereof) is lesser than Christianity.
    Well they're in a majority Christian country, so they should respect the traditions of the majority. I fail to see how this would offend other religions though, since the "God" that's referenced isn't even specified.

    Just like I have to respect the religious traditions of the people in Islamic majority countries. Even as a Catholic, I have to respect the fact that America is largely a Protestant nation.

    So once you stop to realise the world doesn't revolve around you, it's not that hard a concept to accept.

    I bet the Pagan population put "In Goddess we trust" on the money, there'd be a revolt.
    That would be illegal.


    But really, why does tradition even matter? Just because it was done one way in the past doesn't mean that it shouldn't be improved upon.
    Tradition isn't about being against change, but rather maintaining continuity through change. Pope John Paul II once remarked that true fidelity to tradition is creative, not imitative.

    That's like saying "Well, our ancestors were religious supremists, so in an interest to uphold what our ancestors thought, we're going to continue being religious supremists, even though we generally agree that supremism is wrong."
    Read what I wrote above.

  10. #120
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    hehe, I take the South Park stance: "Either everything is okay to poke fun at, or Nothing is."
    might as well go with everything- it prevents you from offing yourself I suppose!

    nothing worth beleiving in says no to laughing.... or the keeping of a poker face in the few minutes before laughing....
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

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