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  1. #81
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enyo View Post
    People who want to do drugs will do them, regardless of legality. People who don't want to do drugs won't do them, regardless of legality. All that the legal status will impact is cost (due to sentencing users, attempting to crush the black market, and the crimes that are committed due to people trying to get the money to support that black market) and revenue (due to the ability to tax and regulate the industry).
    you're categorization of people is too simplistic and the conclusions you've drawn from that categorization are not complete.

    there are people who will not actively seek out illegal drugs. if, however, several highly addictive drugs are suddenly legalized and become as easily available as alcohol or cigarettes we will see a lot more non-addicts and non-users casually testing them out. so what's the problem there? it has to do with addictiveness and the movement from casually testing drugs to serious addiction. if the distance between those two states can be measured in one sitting then i think there is good cause to make illegal their sale and use or if not illegal then at least severely regulate them.

    i think the situation most people are afraid of when it comes to legalizing certain drugs is that they will then become fodder for the next tabacco-like industry... which is to say nearly ubiquitous... if not in use then certainly in availability and visibility.

    tabacco/nicotine actually fits into the category of drugs that are just downright stupid of people to use. although its so entrenched now that to remove it all at once by force would cause so much disruption and uproar that the costs would outweight the benefits. instead the federal government, state governments, cities and local establishments have been slowly nudging the tabacco industry closer to the exit door (literally and figuratively).
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    you're categorization of people is too simplistic and the conclusions you've drawn from that categorization are not complete.

    there are people who will not actively seek out illegal drugs. if, however, several highly addictive drugs are suddenly legalized and become as easily available as alcohol or cigarettes we will see a lot more non-addicts and non-users casually testing them out. so what's the problem there? it has to do with addictiveness and the movement from casually testing drugs to serious addiction. if the distance between those two states can be measured in one sitting then i think there is good cause to make illegal their sale and use or if not illegal then at least severely regulate them.

    i think the situation most people are afraid of when it comes to legalizing certain drugs is that they will then become fodder for the next tabacco-like industry... which is to say nearly ubiquitous... if not in use then certainly in availability and visibility.

    tabacco/nicotine actually fits into the category of drugs that are just downright stupid of people to use. although its so entrenched now that to remove it all at once by force would cause so much disruption and uproar that the costs would outweight the benefits. instead the federal government, state governments, cities and local establishments have been slowly nudging the tabacco industry closer to the exit door (literally and figuratively).
    You're right, I am oversimplifying the matter.

    Regulation will have a lot to do with how visible it is or isn't.

    Previously, I'd said that prostitution should be legalized, and regulated through licensed brothels. I have a similar mentality towards legalizing drugs. It must be thoroughly regulated. Licensed dispensaries, rules on the use, etc. In short, "Sure, you can do a couple of lines of blow, but you can only do it in this legal business establishment that is set aside for that purpose."

    If coke is legal and regulated, people are going to be less likely to reach for crack, which is far more addictive by its very nature.

    And, of course, it should also be slowly nudged towards the door so it's less desirable (even though it's still legal) to use. Unless you live in Seattle or something.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  3. #83
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Many Americans, at least, are still woefully oblivious to the enormous problem we have in the states with legal beverage alcohol. It is estimated that between 70 and 80 percent of all social/legal problems here are related to alcohol use.

    And awareness of its dangerous properties is lacking. Perhaps its common presence blinds us to the obvious. But all around us families are being fragnmented, people are being killed in alcohol-related accidents, people are despairing and self-destructing.

    Do you know, for example, that withdrawal from ethyl alcohol can be fatal.? That overdose to death is increasing? Indeed, that a "hangover" is, in fact, mini-withdrawal? (That's a warning sign that one's body is in the process of becoming habituated to the substance.)

    A person who uses Heroin who has their basic needs met can live a long, if not necessarily productive, life but excessive use of alcohol will degrade multiple life areas regardless of how well an alcoholic can afford to take care of themselves. Heroin addicts will also not run the risk of dying from Heroin withdrawal. (They'll only wish they could. . .)

    In my hometown this last year we have lost three college students to alcohol overdose. I don't know how many other unreported or unrecognized ones there may have been.

    Do you know that cancer and heart attack, two of the most common causes of death, are highly correllated with alcohol consumption? Sometimes that cause of death listed in obituaries is a euphemism for alcholism?

    Do you know that in St Paul this year an effort was made to extend the legal serving time for alcoholic beverages so that the people who were making major political decisions for our country would have a little extra drinking time during their day? What's that?

    Do you know that a highly regarded heart health program initiated in our town had no personal questions regarding alcohol consumption on its evaluation test? Amount of exercise? Yes. Cigarette smoking? Yes? Amount of alcohol consumed? Not mentioned. Upon research by a member of the local drug task force it was discovered that a major funder of the healthy project was a big-time player in the alcohol industry hiding behind an anonymous foundation name.

    It's about money and the consequences be damned.

    I daresay it's about control of the masses as well. (Or benignly allowing/encouraging them indifferent social pursuit of pleasure.) One out of every ten Americans is alcoholic and probably can't lead the masses into revolution, but certainly can prevent good decisions from being made and implemented by the other nine! All of you know what one irrational drunk can do to social order.

    Is there a plot? Ah. Probably not. Is there a common indiference/lack of recognition of the problem? Probably so. "Everybody does it."

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    Do you know that alcohol is a "highly addictive" substance? Particularly if you are male and one or both parents or a close blood relative were alcoholic?

    No new-day Carrie Nation here. I believe in personal choice. . . And providing education.
    Last edited by Anja; 08-30-2008 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Irritating misspellings by author
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  4. #84
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I daresay it's about control of the masses as well. (Or benignly allowing/encouraging them indifferent social pusuit of pleasure.) One out of every ten Americans is alcoholic and probably can't lead the masses into revolution, but certainly can prevent good decisions from being made and implemented by the other nine! All of you know what one irrational drunk can do to social order.
    It's not that I'm an advocate of drinking. I don't drink. I quit years ago.

    However, whenever we attempt to legislate morality, it fails. (Prohibition, anyone?)
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  5. #85
    Senior Member Noel's Avatar
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    End it.
    Educate.
    I may be bested in battle, but I shall never be defeated.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Amen, Enyo. Prohibition. What was it REALLY all about?

    Addiction being prominent in social problems, it makes sense that the remedy can come from the social services.

    Legally it is a problem of the masses, socially it is a problem of the individual. Start there?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #87
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Interesting site, Noel. I'll take time to have a closer look later.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  8. #88
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Legally it is a problem of the masses, socially it is a problem of the individual. Start there?
    I would go so far as to say that darned near every problem, even if it effects the masses, should be handled individually.

    I quit drinking because I lost interest. That was way more effective for me than being told that I had to quit drinking.

    I quit smoking pot because my theory was that while in high school, it was experimenting. After high school, it was a lifestyle choice, and I didn't want that to be my lifestyle.

    I limited myself to experimenting with cocaine, because I really liked it, and I knew that if I did it more, I'd like it a little *too* much.

    I've experimented with LSD. Why? Because it was forbidden. Didn't do any more than experiment because the recovery sucked.

    I've experimented with ecstasy. Why? It was forbidden. Didn't do it more than once because coming down *really* sucked.

    None of these things damaged my life. And if it had all been legal, I probably wouldn't have bothered with any of it.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

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