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  1. #21
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Legalize it. Seriously, I'd love to see drugs legalized. I don't use them, and haven't done any of that crap since I, um, "experimented" in high school.

    But, the pro's to legalization puts it on the same level as alcohol. It's a great source of revenue, and because it's legal, we're not overfilling the prison population. It needs to be legal so that it can be taxed and regulated.

    Likewise, I support the legalization of prostitution, but only in the form of licensed, regulated brothels.

    (I'm not a hooker or a drug user, but the criminalization of these things are an extension of the nanny state, as well as legislating morality. Y'know, kind of like we did in the Prohibition.)
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  2. #22
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    That's why I don't want buyers to get punished, I already said that.
    I understand more so where you are coming from with that, but imo, it's a mistake to send drug dealers to prison for long terms when in reality all they are is entrepreneurs in an illegal business. But prison makes the non-violent ones hard. I would be perfectly fine with massive fines levied against drug dealers, though, since they aren't taxed. This way the government would get more revenue rather than wasting it on imprisonment.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  3. #23
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Well, it depends on how you look at it. On one hand, drugs hurt people. On the other, we're spending a lot of money while making little difference.

    So I guess the question is, does the government trying to enforce anti-narcotics laws help us enough (versus making them legal) to justify the money we're spending on it?

    If it does, I say keep enforcing them. If not, I say get rid of the laws and save money. I mean, I think if you choose to take drugs, you're ultimately responsible for the effect they have on your life. That should honestly be deterrent enough already. Getting rid of those laws might also get rid of the "cool/taboo" factor.

    But I don't know enough about this.

  4. #24
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I understand more so where you are coming from with that, but imo, it's a mistake to send drug dealers to prison for long terms when in reality all they are is entrepreneurs in an illegal business. But prison makes the non-violent ones hard.
    I have no moral problem with drug dealing, and I wouldn't want to see them mixed in with rapists and murderers (perhaps give them a separate jail for non-violent offenders, or just make them pay large fines depending on their operation)

  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    The problem is making something illegal that is made from completely legal substances that can be mixed in your kitchen.
    Well, yes... But, a person can also die from eating peanuts, which are perfectly legal even in their potentially deadly form.

    You can kill someone with a gun, but you can also kill someone one with a neck-tie. The question is, does the fact that they are both potentially deadly mean that we shouldn't distinguish between a gun and a neck-tie when assessing danger?

    We come back to the peanuts. A peanut is potentially deadly, and herione is potentially deadly, but are they of equal potential? Are they equaly likey or probable causes of death? I'd say not.

    Futher more, if we get back to the gun and the tie, how likely is it that the tie will be used for something other than killing? How about the gun?

    I personally don't know how exactly to deal with the drug situation, but what I have noticed is that people who are in favor of legalizing all drugs have a tendency to ignore rather obvious distinctions. That fact that every thing is potentially deadly doesn't justify that assault rifles or heroine should be legal.

    Now, to get to the original quote, the ingredients that make a drug could be harmless on their own, and could have several other purposes. The particular drug itself could be useless and deadly. So, why not ban the drug, but not the base ingredients? Don't tell me that it's inconsistent or impractical. You don't ban ties because they can kill people, but you would throw someone in jail for killing a person with a tie. The point here is that it is perfectly legitimate to leave potential for an act legal, while making the act itself illegal.
    The potential to make a drug =/= illegal. Making the drug = illegal.

    The alternatives are to ban the ingredients, or to legalize the drug. Or, in other words, the alternative is to ban ties or legalzing killing people. Either idea would be insane.
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  6. #26
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So, why not ban the drug, but not the base ingredients? Don't tell me that it's inconsistent or impractical.
    It is impractical. It's like sweeping on a windy day. Neck ties don't sell for $30,000 a pound and no one is addicted to killing with them. Like I said before, I'm not for blanket free use for everyone...and to be honest I think decriminalizing some of the lesser drugs would make demand for meth subside dramatically.

    Essentially, I think criminalization of victimless crimes is a waste of money and manpower because ones such as drug abuse are not necessarily criminal problems...they're social and mental problems. We don't arrest people for being addicted to alcohol and we don't arrest people for being addicted to nicotine.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  7. #27
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Essentially, I think criminalization of victimless crimes is a waste of money and manpower because ones such as drug abuse are not necessarily criminal problems...
    Obviously, much of the debate centers on whether or not drug use is a victemless crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    they're social and mental problems.
    All criminal problems are social and/or mental problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    We don't arrest people for being addicted to alcohol and we don't arrest people for being addicted to nicotine.
    I understand. I was mainly addressing the point about how illegal drugs are made from legal products. I was stating that there is validity in giving the two seperate treatment. Now, whether or not the method of jailing drug makers works to begin with, is another issue.
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  8. #28
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Obviously, much of the debate centers on whether or not drug use is a victemless crime.
    Obviously the user is a victim...but in the typical use of "victimless crime" I think it definitely is. Now, does it exacerbate victim crimes? Yes. But so does alcohol. Marijuana probably wouldn't.

    All criminal problems are social and/or mental problems.
    True, but not all social and mental problems are criminal problems. The only thing that makes something a crime is arbitrary decision making by Congress.

    I understand. I was mainly addressing the point about how illegal drugs are made from legal products. I was stating that there is validity in giving the two seperate treatment. Now, whether or not the method of jailing drug makers works to begin with, is another issue.
    That works.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  9. #29
    Senior Member Maabus1999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    I was reading an article in Time magazine today about the drug wars going on in Mexico. Crap is serious down there...
    Yeah, and AZ, NM, and TX are ground zero if this continues.

  10. #30
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Futher more, if we get back to the gun and the tie, how likely is it that the tie will be used for something other than killing? How about the gun?

    I personally don't know how exactly to deal with the drug situation, but what I have noticed is that people who are in favor of legalizing all drugs have a tendency to ignore rather obvious distinctions. That fact that every thing is potentially deadly doesn't justify that assault rifles or heroine should be legal.

    Now, to get to the original quote, the ingredients that make a drug could be harmless on their own, and could have several other purposes. The particular drug itself could be useless and deadly. So, why not ban the drug, but not the base ingredients? Don't tell me that it's inconsistent or impractical. You don't ban ties because they can kill people, but you would throw someone in jail for killing a person with a tie. The point here is that it is perfectly legitimate to leave potential for an act legal, while making the act itself illegal.
    The potential to make a drug =/= illegal. Making the drug = illegal.
    Well, this topic is about drugs, so I don't even want to get off of it talking about my opinion on guns. Suffice to say, I have no problem with assault rifles being legal, so you're example wasn't affective on me.

    Basically what I see is you're saying to keep drugs illegal because they can kill someone?

    But if someone dies of a drug overdose, it was their choice. Its like saying suicide is illegal, lol. Pretty much a victimless crime, really. As long as drug users aren't infringing on someone else's rights, then I don't care what they do to themselves. Thats up to their families, not the government.

    Also, look at it this way. Legalizing drugs will end the illegal drug trade, which in itself will save hundreds of lives by ending the need for the violence so inherent in it.

    The DEA would not be entirely useless as they will be used then for regulating drugs. The same with the BATF regulating alcohol, tobacco, and firearms.

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