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  1. #11
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Indeed, but I find it very easy to lose patience with people who do things like accuse me of being a sex offender or dining on the bones of Arab children for not agreeing with them. Sometimes I don't even disagree with them, I just don't have the appropriate levels of RIGHTEOUS OUTRAGE to mollify them.

    I find it best to avoid talking about these subjects too much these days, because I tend to draw the ire of crazies like moths to a flame.
    I think one of my titles, type-wise is 'Cruisader'. But, lord, as outraged as I get, I believe that you really just can't reason with people. Emotional crowbars are probably more effective than reason, they create an atmosphere of imposed values. The values will take hold if they are ultimately beneficial to people or at least not cumbersome beyond measure, and that's how society works. I try to be as uncynical as I can about life, knowing this.

    I think my viewpoint has mostly been formulated by observing and participating in converting people to Jehovah's Witnesses and observing how people end up leaving them. Logic rarely is part of any of these happenings.

  2. #12
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Passacaglia View Post

    One can of course argue about the wisdom of personally believing rape claims by default, but Maxwell is not arguing against due process of law.
    The real issue is that rape is a felony, and so the investigation of it on college campuses should be handled by professionals in the legal system, not campus bureacracies. The discussion about false accusations vs rape culture is a smoke screen ignoring the real problem. There's a history of institutional neglect of these issues. They should be reported to the police, but instead colleges are choosing to handle the matter internally because they want to avoid bad PR. They are betraying their students trust.

    I find the mentality of " well who cares if a bunch of frat boys were falsely accused" to be problematic. Just because someone had a better social life than you in college does not make a false accusation "ok." (Not that you are arguing this, but I have heard people actually argue this.)

    This is also unfair to rape victims. Why should someone who commits a felony not do jail time just because it happened on a college campus? The people involved in these cases are adults, and they should be legally treated as such. These cases should be treated more seriously than they are, and handled by professionals, for the sake of all parties involved.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #13
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    This article explains almost exactly what I think and feel about this movement. I am really happy to see it articulated on paper.

    https://medium.com/@aristoNYC/social...e-6bdb5ad3c9d3



    The article is a bit long but it's well worth the read. It addresses the core issue of the far end of the social justice movement: rejection of logic, and use of emotional pleading. People actively seek to make you feel bad. Seeing the end goal and attempting to get there by any means necessary. The town I live in is very liberal and I have seen this type of thing happen several times, and it seems to be increasing with frequency. It's extremely disenhearting to see a movement that started with initially good intentions, to slowly dissolve into something grotesque and wrong.

    Discuss.
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  4. #14
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So, basically, I agree with the part about identity politics being a terrible thing, about the whole practice basically being ad hominem, and that the truth of what one says is not determined by who they are. Hell, I'm not even a fan of pluralism.

    Other than that, I think I have some issues with almost every part of this. I give a cursory writing of what stood out to me, and maybe I'll elaborate in a more sophisticated manner at some other time.

    He references intersectionality in a weird way. I'd say it's one of the best ideas we have for actually alleviating a lot of things that he is complaining about, because it is intersectionality that allows us to appreciate that a poor white man still has to deal with the struggles of being poor. He might be targeting the wrong thing there.

    I feel that he is unifying too much that is not unified. I don't think there is actually a movement, and mistaking it for one results in over-generalizing or seeing contradictions where there aren't any. For example, the whole thing about racism against white people being impossible. I've encountered people who think that, but many, probably the majority, of the people I've encountered who might be called Social Justice Warriors did not believe that. Likewise, if you decide a bunch of people represent a group, you start thinking that the difference in ideas expressed by two different individuals is contradictory because you are treating them as one unit. I don't think his point about one-way sexism and feminism helping men actually overlap all that often. This is one of those areas where there seem to be pretty strong, dividing lines. Which reminds me that he makes a point about following a narrative. I find that hard to believe because I have a hard time finding a single narrative that has consolidated real power.

    I'm just going to have to say I'm slightly different from him on the topic of attitude. Sometimes justice does mean being angry, hostile, and in rare cases, violent. I don't think that's automatically a point against something.

    I feel that while he is trying to illustrate misleading statistics, he is also letting his guard down. Any half-vetted feminist would be quick on the retort about how sexism in society is partially responsible for those differences in the employment between men and women that would hypothetically close the wage gap. In that regard, the wage difference is still a manifestation of the problem.

    I'm talking from experience here again (but then, so is he), but I guess I just don't see his account of things where these people are especially unreasonable or opposed to logic. They are of course often unreasonable, but that's because people are in general. I haven't witnessed some kind of Social Justice Warrior contingency that is especially unreasonable, and is perhaps not even equally as unreasonable as the factions we would typically consider the SJW's opposition.
    Counterexamples to this would include #gamergate , the firing of Brendan Eich, the frenzy over Chick-Fil-A and over Hobby Lobby, that pizza place in Indiana (including Alix Bryan of CBS channel 6), and the news reports about Sad Puppies and the Hugo awards.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  5. #15
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Revolutions usually eat their own. Ask Robespierre.
    This is why I am not a revolutionary. No interest in becoming the next Robespierre or Trotsky.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  6. #16
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    This is why I am not a revolutionary. No interest in becoming the next Robespierre or Trotsky.
    I can't say this is my primary reason, but it is one for sure. The idea of even being part of a protest feels revolting to me in almost every case, even if I agree with/support it.
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  7. #17
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    You make very good points.

    One of my friends responded to this when I posted it on facebook in a very mouth-foamy way. I am not touching that with a 10ft poll. Granted, it was more or less saying what you're saying (though he did go a lot father). After hearing what he said, and what you're saying, I can see where there are issues in the article. I think what I was more taking away the general message (as I understood it anyway): Stop being irrational and applying illogic to a well-intended movement. Ultimately though I think you and my friend are right, he did put together a shotty argument when you get to the details.]
    Sure, but I would say is that this problem plagues basically every group, faction, perspective, etc... I have a rather cynical belief that incompetence and irrationality is very normal, and it is almost bound to be normal within divisions of people. This creates a serious problem when trying to blame a belief or ideology on the content of its subscribers. You can probably make such negative generalizations even about the most righteous and truthful ideologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I never really felt like this is or was a unified movement. I mean, I generally don't see any unified movements anywhere. There kinda is with the tea party, and a little but during the occupy wallstreet movement. Even then though it's just clusters of individuals who share common values that every now and again join together out of incident.
    I'd say a huge difference between Social Just Warrios and the two movements you mentioned is that they self-assigned or self-identified membership to a movement, and asserted the existence of a movement, and physically assembled on the basis of shared membership, even if there were no qualifications for being a member and the people who chose to do so were eclectic.

    I can't say I've seen any such thing happen with the phase or concept of Social Justice Warrior.

    Perhaps you could put #gamergate halfway between, because people who threw that tag around often assigned themselves membership status and asserted the existence of a movement, but they never assembled and were typically anonymous online and we have little evidence to show us how much claims of a movement and its size were actually accurate.

    Incidentally, social movement theory is a really rich, old, and complex area of sociology. It's one of those things where if you want to know why, say, we decide something is or isn't a social movement, you can really dig deep in the body of work that's out there. It's the kind of thing that you need to sub-specialize in (practically sub-sub specialize) and even I feel out of my depths in it up to a certain point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    That said I can almost never condone angry, hostile, and never violent protest unless there is an absolute crystal clear right/wrong position to be made, because of this this is a huge reason why I get so bent out of shape over people pushing illogical "I am gonna make you feel guilty for existing!" BS. It doesn't help that for all intents and purposes I believe what feminism pushes to advance (read: equality and fairness without bias), so seeing people who should be helping with this do the exact opposite of what they should be just makes my blood completely boil.
    That phrase is kind of like "beyond the shadow of a doubt". If we accept that anger and violence is justified at some point, it then all comes down to disagreeing about when that point is. When are you certain enough that you are right?

    And guilt is an interesting thing to me. If someone were literally trying to tell you that you should feel guilty for existing, or say, being white, that would be ridiculous. That being said, it does fascinate me just how offensive people find it to be told they should feel guilty about something. The level of offense almost surpasses racial epithets.

    Sometimes, especially after I see some people post on forums like these or comment sections, I get to thinking that people need to suck it up and learn how to feel a little guilty now and then. You might not be one of those people, but the point is, I don't think it's so unreasonable to suggest there's a reason for someone else to feel guilty sometimes, but it appears to be one hell of a transgression in our culture to do so, and this, as result, seems to inflame response to so-called SJW behavior beyond reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I live in a very liberal town and I have seen individuals act like a stereotypical bad SJW before, so I do regard it as a legitmate thing. It's largely confined to the internet at the moment because it's mostly people in our generation (according to your profile I am only 4 months younger than you) or slightly younger. The thing is though, eventually we'll be older, and a bunch of us will wind up getting louder, and in public spaces, and public office, and I really don't want to see these stereotypes wind up there. Unfortunately, like anyone with an axe to grind and agenda, they often seek power.
    Or will it never come to anything? I have not lived in typically liberal places. I lived in rural PA, then barely not rural Harrisburg, and now Pittsburgh, which is at best a sort of centrist-liberal, somewhat Democratic city. That being said, given my academic pursuits, it seems like I should be encountering this whole SJW thing more often than I do. So what I wonder is if this thing only reaches the point of a legitimate problem in areas that are very eccentrically liberal, very unrepresentative of the general population. If so, how much does it matter? I feel like I'm looking at a country where the problems and the ignorant ideas that are attacked by supposed SJWs are so much more prevalent that I can't be much bothered with what SJWs do. And what's more, the worst anyone has to complain about SJWs is still, of course, not nearly as awful as the things that SJWs at least wish to combat. In the big picture, I don't see it making waves.

    And even if it is confined to liberal self-critique, I'd prefer something a lot more constructive. I have issues with some elements of popular feminism today, with critical race theory, as I said, with pluralism, and number of other ideas that are popular amongst those we would identify as liberals. I have gone about criticizing those things in ways that I believe are a lot more productive than resorting to a crude idea like Social Justice Warriors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    For those interested, this is what my facebook friend said. For an ENTP he is quite moody. EDIT: Turns out he was drinking when he wrote it and got hyperbolic cause of it. He's a good guy though.

    As you figured, I agree with the rationale of most of what he is saying. It's just that the tone of it is a bit like he's throwing a hay maker. He'd do better to dial it back.

    The two main disagreements I have with him are that, again, I don't quite agree with the one way racism thing and I'm not too moved by his defense. Yes, any word can mean anything a group agrees that word should mean between them, but, the truth is, where you are not going an authoritative definition, this all becomes an expression of personal stance, and it's just as valid to recognize the group's definition but state that you think it is a poor definition and why. One should attempt to negotiate this, because if you really let language be completely fluid, then it ceases all function (that's actually what Orwell was talking about and why the author brought him up).

    Secondly, his statements about ad hominem attacks miss the point, I think. It would be reasonable to assume that a German knows more of Germany than a non-German as a rule of thumb. But the issue the author was taking is the idea of asserting that what someone is saying is untrue just because of who they are. It's easy to imagine a non-German professor of German culture and history knowing more about Germany than a random German citizen. It's not even hard to imagine me being right about some particular thing that some German isn't every now and then. I've seen firsthand how wrong Americans are about America most of the time. I've seen non-Americans argue with Americans about America and come closer to the truth. This presumably applies to all other countries as well. The only way out of this is to go into the mushy realm of subjective experience and the difficulties of knowing it. But once you take that route, it can always degenerate into asserting that every single person has a different individual experience and thus no one can understand the life of anyone else, which is useless and absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I can't say this is my primary reason, but it is one for sure. The idea of even being part of a protest feels revolting to me in almost every case, even if I agree with/support it.
    See, I can't say I share this feeling at all. I do not participate in such things much, but I do not find it hard to envision that I might or begrudge anyone for doing so.

    It would be inaccurate to say protests are all pointless or ineffectual. We get that idea perhaps from the sheer abundance of them which emerged following the successes of the protest cycles of the 60s and 70s, but they have at times been crucial to substantive social changes.

    So on the other hand, rather than criticize their efficacy, you could criticize them as radical or disruptive, to which I say, that is the point, and many times we have been better off for it. The very nature of having a social belief, a prescriptive belief about society, is such that it is pointless if you oppose taking action to promote it.
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  8. #18
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    With so many young bulls around the internet one asks why they spout so much bullshit.

    Some of them will mature, thankfully.

  9. #19
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Indeed, but I find it very easy to lose patience with people who do things like accuse me of being a sex offender or dining on the bones of Arab children for not agreeing with them. Sometimes I don't even disagree with them, I just don't have the appropriate levels of RIGHTEOUS OUTRAGE to mollify them.

    I find it best to avoid talking about these subjects too much these days, because I tend to draw the ire of crazies like moths to a flame.
    Righteous outrage gets right on my tits.
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  10. #20
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I very much so dislike the general SJW movement. I think most reasonable people in my generation fall somewhere along the spectrum of what SJW's represent (don't be a total racist, don't be a dick, don't be completely sexist, etc. etc.) but I'm specifically talking about SJW's that represent a very particular subsection of society. A small group of people that are given that name not because they crusade for reasonable things--but for unreasonable things.

    Do people with more annoying beliefs (like that men should get extra ball space on the train because fuck you that's why) throw regular old common sense (like close your god damned legs the seats were made for people even if they have ball sacks) into the SJW category? All the time. But there is a distinction. SJW's represent irresponsible and just outright hateful emotional word vomit that doesn't make any sense based on vague notions of ideas that people can actually get behind if it weren't for all the purging of raw and unchallenged information.

    The problem with SJWs is that they're challenging preconceived notions--or at least that's what they feel they are doing-- without letting anyone ever challenge them back. Instead of having appropriate reasonable conversations and discussions, there is a lot of dismissal, invalidation, and outright screaming and tantrum throwing if anyone dares even say that hey, maybe you're on the right track, but you're on the wrong train here.

    I think the article is emotionally charged too, which always gives way to errors because logic and emotions are good friends--but very different from each other at the same time. But still, I think people muddy up social justice in general (the idea of making society a more reasonable and balanced place to live and grow up in) with SJW's, which is a very particular name set for a very particular extremist representation.

    And for the record, on a completely personal note, anyone that refers to me as a cisgender I just automatically dump into SJW categories. The whole concept of "I label you how I want to label you in an insulting tone and you'll not give me any lip about it while complaining about labels holding me back and how people should be more understanding about me" is enough to boot someone off of my facebook page or from a social media link up. Everything about that genuinely irritates the complete shit out of me.
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