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  1. #11
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post

    Direct, immediate, and realistic. Once we start reaching into possibilities and 'prevention' then we don't really know where it ends.
    Minority report of course. So essentially murder can never be prevented due to the instability of a person's mental state or reasoning?

    How about people who have admitted to having sexual thoughts about children but who have committed no actual crime?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  2. #12
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Minority report of course. So essentially murder can never be prevented due to the instability of a person's mental state or reasoning?

    How about people who have admitted to having sexual thoughts about children but who have committed no actual crime?
    That's correct in most places and will probably remain so unless we see radical changes in the way we handle law.

    The way things are handled currently, criminal liability comes from act and intent together. Thought crime is not sufficient for an indictment. Partial/failed/abandoned attempts are often indicted but to a lesser degree than if the crime is actually completed.

    Many things are vile, wrong and harmful, but not illegal.

  3. #13
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Figured this is a good topic for debate.

    Please no debate competition antics, they're tiresome and boring.

    Question - does freedom of speech necessitate a right to offend?

    (hope this hasn't come up before, limited in searches on a phone)
    With the vast variety of types of people we have in this world, many seemingly innocuous things we say can offend some people greatly. There are many instances where there is no viewpoint that everyone will agree with (one only has to look at jixmixfix's thread on feminism to see one example). Restricting freedom of speech usually means censoring views that don't agree with the censors.

    However, one of the aspects that make civilisation function is acceptance of differing viewpoints. We can't all be the same type of person (preaching to the converted here) and we'll frequently encounter people whose views annoy us, and people who are annoyed by our views. These views may be irreconcilable but at the same time, this is a fair and balanced system.

    Words and debates are far more civil than draconian laws to silence, political prisoners, bombings or beheadings.

  4. #14
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Question - does freedom of speech necessitate a right to offend?
    Yes, a legal right - not necessarily a moral right. You may have the right to spread your message of hate but this doesn't mean you should do so.

    This is my opinion of European cartoonists and their deliberate attempts to incite the ire of Muslims with their offensive depictions of Mohammed. They are legally permitted to do it and should be allowed to continue to, but it doesn't mean they're not assholes for doing it. Many such people feign naivety and hide behind claims that they merely exercising freedom of speech, when really they're trying to create the perception that deliberately insulting Muslims is just, if not virtuous. Somehow through all the protests, controversy and murders, they've manage to conflate the ethical value of freedom of speech with ethical content (in the media at least), which is rather underhanded IMO.

    Don't get me wrong, the Muslim response has been deplorable and no one deserves to be killed over a cartoon*. But if we put that highly emotive aspect of the controversy aside, I can't say I really approve of the attitude with which this stuff starts. It's like trolling in the real world.

    *
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte
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  5. #15
    Member OrionzRevenge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixie sticks View Post
    ...i don't think people should be allowed to parade through residential areas anyway, especially for the purpose of spreading some political ideology. why can't people sit on their porch in peace without being subjected to incessant noise pollution?
    Would your same rule apply in this situation???
    http://www.lbjlibrary.org/assets/upl...lma_march.jpeg

    If not then again we are back to asking who will decide when & where???
    "The only real valuable thing is intuition." Albert Einstein
    "My mind seems to have become a kind of machine for grinding general laws out of large collections of facts." Charles Darwin

  6. #16
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    If I want to have the freedom to shout what I think from the rooftops, it stands to reason that I extend that same freedom to any other person. That doesn't mean I can't—or won't—disagree with them. (I may even tell them to get a grip on themselves.) If you don't have a right to offend, there is no free speech.

    Over the years, freedom of speech has come up in this forum, concerning posts. Right, @Ivy?

    Freedom of speech vs the right to offend. I do not see it that way. I see free speech as all-encompassing.

  7. #17
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    No one has a right not to be offended. Which is why I find campus speech codes so ridiculous.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Properly understood no one actually offends you without your permission to do so.

  9. #19
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Properly understood no one actually offends you without your permission to do so.
    You seem to grant quite a lot of permission for that.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  10. #20
    Senior Member Passacaglia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Freedom of speech vs the right to offend. I do not see it that way. I see free speech as all-encompassing.
    That's a valid view, but lawfully limiting free speech is not without precedent -- the 'clear and present danger' exception, for example, when someone shouts 'fire' in a crowded theatre.

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