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  1. #91
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    Hmm maybe this thread would be a better home for this sub-discussion:

    Where is the line between protests and harassment?
    At what point it was no longer okay to vocally disagree?
    AT what point we should protect people from disagreements and ideas they disagree with?

    (Original context: Abortion protests, but since this isn't really abortion related).

  2. #92
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Hmm maybe this thread would be a better home for this sub-discussion:

    Where is the line between protests and harassment?
    At what point it was no longer okay to vocally disagree?
    AT what point we should protect people from disagreements and ideas they disagree with?

    (Original context: Abortion protests, but since this isn't really abortion related).
    Those points come from whatever is left after enough people fight over it.

    That's how it works. And even IF we could come up with a perfectly reasoned argument that isn't arbitrary (I don't think we can, but let's pretend) you're going to need a lot of luck to get it through the mob.

    Or in other words, the right answer - if one even exists - has no effect if you can't push it through the gauntlet of stubborn ideals.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Those points come from whatever is left after enough people fight over it.

    That's how it works. And even IF we could come up with a perfectly reasoned argument that isn't arbitrary (I don't think we can, but let's pretend) you're going to need a lot of luck to get it through the mob.

    Or in other words, the right answer - if one even exists - has no effect if you can't push it through the gauntlet of stubborn ideals.
    In practical terms I can't disagree, but that is half the answer. You are right that we aren't going to be able to convince a bunch of people who were recently laid off that their protests of a CEO or factory management constitute "Harassment", but does a protest become harassment by virtue of not having enough people behind it?

    Edit: 10-50 people expressing verbal disagreement - a political right, 1-5 people expressing verbal disagreement - a misdemeanor?

  4. #94
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    In practical terms I can't disagree, but that is half the answer. You are right that we aren't going to be able to convince a bunch of people who were recently laid off that their protests of a CEO or factory management constitute "Harassment", but does a protest become harassment by virtue of not having enough people behind it?
    I think protests in the context of how they happen in current events are a special kind of harassment in the first place. It's essentially harassment that we might find excusable. People protest to create pressure for change and of course people who don't agree with the change might see it as obnoxious and harassment. Might as well play the ball in this side of the court if that's where it is being taken.

    I think a more direct question would be does perceived harassment always need to be indicted?
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  5. #95
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    Yeah like I said sort of in my last post, there is more than one way to say the same thing. You can say something in the most offensive manner to be sure that you get your point across, or you can choose your words carefully as to not deliberately offend but still say what you need to say.
    Or you can take the middle ground and focus on the facts of the matter, being as neutral as possible. No insults, no hyperbole, no sugar-coating and beating around the bush.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    For example, when I have an issue with something a friend is doing (example: borrowing money and not paying it back), I sit them down and first ask for the reasons. If there are no good reasons, or the person starts to get defensive, I try to calmly address what I need to say, tell the person what I think of the situation and tell them how it could cause them problems in the future. Constructive criticism is extremely important, it helps to get people talking and brainstorming over ways to change a behavior. It is better to focus on what can be done andwhat needs to be done to change something rather than focusing on something that already happened and cannot be changed. Remember the past, but use it as a way to focus on the future.
    This is a decent approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    But I digress. Back to the OP. Freedom to do something is not freedom of consequence. You have every right to offend someone.. but if that's the right thing to do is another question. If someone says they admire someone for doing something their own way, and you think that's dumb.. do you just tell people that's dumb? Or is there a better way to word things that creates something productive? Generally speaking, something that is not productive at all is offensive to me. Just walking to shout out your stupid opinion is .. well.. stupid. "Omfg I would never do that" during a poll asking someone if you would or not is productive. Someone saying, "I did this, and if you've done it too I'd like to discuss it" and you butting in going "omg I'd never" is not productive. Saying "So, I've never done this, and here's why.. also I'm here to gain knowledge/insight, or to ask a question too" is productive. There is a difference.

    And strong opinions don't need to be belittling and insulting. It does take some finesse but it is possible to state something without making another person feel attacked.
    Sometimes. It is certainly possible to express strong opinions without insults or belitting, but it is impossible to control someone else's feelings. Some people will feel attacked however constructive, idea-focused, and even gentle the criticism is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    There's an art to giving bad news to people though. It's like sales, you have to do a bullshit sandwich.
    I have never heard this term, but it is apt. Such conversational gymnastics do leave a distinctly foul taste in one's mouth.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  6. #96
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Sometimes. It is certainly possible to express strong opinions without insults or belitting, but it is impossible to control someone else's feelings. Some people will feel attacked however constructive, idea-focused, and even gentle the criticism is.
    Sure. But the idea is not to control what everyone else is doing--it is to be in control of your own actions. There is a reason therapeutic communication is taught nearly everywhere now-a-days for professionals. Because just walking up and saying, "Hey, your son is dead now." and walking away is just plain wrong. So, when the situation is less grave, it doesn't mean it gives people the right to just throw out whatever they want with no intentions of actually establishing communication under the guise of not wanting to sugar-coat things. It isn't sugar coating to attempt to establish neutral but still culturally sensitive thoughts.

    You won't win over everyone. No doubt about that. In fact, you can even think you're being all super professional but your approach still isn't what the other person prefers or likes or wants, so eff you and all your efforts.

    But that doesn't really give a pass for not trying, and one should have the testicular fortitude to straighten up and make something constructive happen. One really ought not take out frustrations for other peoples' shortcomings on everyone.. because in the process of doing that, you let others control your own approaches and standards.

    Like you said, everyone is different. Sugar coating for one person may just be plain politeness for someone else. And that's in the same culture. Lord forbid we throw other ones in there. Making a personal policy of providing constructive and non-invalidating discussions goes a long long way no matter who the audience is.

    But I feel your frustrations with it for sure. I often feel like all I ever do is mentally brush my brain's teeth from all the sugar it had to dump onto everything around me just to make it palatable for others.
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