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  1. #931
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    I am not saying she uses ALL of the same methods, the day were the MRA starts gender study groups about The Matriarchy would be a very sad day indeed.
    But our current day gender studies is ok right? promoting misandry?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    I am saying she is using the same specific method of reinforcing a position about current politics through reinterpreting history to support her agenda in the very same breath that she complains about feminists doing that exact same thing.
    So what is wrong with this? if history wasn't interpreted properly to begin with?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Yes, and there is room to reinterpret them. But doing so with an ideological agenda is a double edged sword that creates loyalty at the cost of alienation, which is fine for movements that have already peaked in size and are trying to maintain whoever they have left to hang around a little while longer (Like feminism), but is not for a group that is still trying to gain traction and grow (Like the MRA). Let the people come with the version of history they've learned in highschool.
    I don't think there is just one version of history that exists I think there are different sides and perspectives that should be recognized. It's not even specific instances of history and events that are reinterpreted it's a very broad notion and misconception of history. The notion that men had built a society at the expense of women is totally false and shouldn't be taught in any education system.

  2. #932
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    You don't see any MRA's limiting freedom and speech by protesting an event against PHD professor/writer. Notice the guy at 2:00 participating in the event wanting to find solace in his friends suicide, which a common issue for males in today's society.


  3. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    But our current day gender studies is ok right? promoting misandry?
    No, neither is ok, that's exactly my point - "Feminist did it first" isn't an excuse - the men's' right movement shouldn't try to copy the same toxic methodologies.
    Likes SpankyMcFly liked this post

  4. #934
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    No, neither is ok, that's exactly my point - "Feminist did it first" isn't an excuse - the men's' right movement shouldn't try to copy the same toxic methodologies.
    They aren't copying the same toxic methodologies though that is my point. I don't see any evidence of this that is why I am asking you support your claim.

  5. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    They aren't copying the same toxic methodologies though that is my point. I don't see any evidence of this that is why I am asking you support your claim.
    As I said - it isn't quite as bad - For now the most extreme case I've seen of unsupported narrative is Karen's notion that women's suffrage would have happened anyway and the lacking factor of personal agency and resulting ability to directly impact the responsibility-to-power distribution she speaks so highly of. This isn't a lot, but when feminist historical revisionism started it wasn't a lot either, and we can see what it has become since. This is not the direction the MRA needs to evolve in.

    In the long run, it would be a strategic mistake to do so.

  6. #936
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    As I said - it isn't quite as bad - For now the most extreme of case I've seen of unsupported narrative is Karen's notion that women's suffrage would have happened anyway and the lacking factor of personal agency and resulting ability to directly impact the responsibility-to-power distribution she speaks so highly of. This isn't a lot, but when feminist historical revisionism started it wasn't a lot either, and we can see what it has become since. This is not the direction the MRA needs to evolve in.
    She is right in a sense there was no need for feminists to use force and protest the way that they did it could have been conducted in a more peaceful/humane way, I do agree that with the rise of technology and capitalism it would only make sense for women to acquire the freedoms they have today. You actually think that the MRA movement is going in the same direction of the feminist movement? you can't even compare the early feminists movements to that of MRAS. MRAs counter feminist rhetoric with facts and logic, they don't directly attack support groups for women by using shaming tactics like feminists are doing to men and MRAs.Have you heard to MGTOW? these MRAs are doing the exact opposite, they are protesting using non forceful methods of opting out of society. Men don't want to go their own way, it sucks but they don't have a choice they don't have a voice in a society that consistently shames them and takes away their rights for benefits of women.

  7. #937
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    She is right in a sense there was no need for feminists to use force and protest the way that they did it could have been conducted in a more peaceful/humane way, I do agree that with the rise of technology and capitalism it would only make sense for women to acquire the freedoms they have today.
    And yet we still see countries that are part of the global market - with technology & capitalism (Even if less successful) - and are not adapting their gender roles. Without the suffrage movement, is there any reason america wouldn't have done the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    You actually think that the MRA movement is going in the same direction of the feminist movement?
    It's trying to counter feminist rethorics by creating it's own equivalents - fighting fire with fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Have you heard to MGTOW? these MRAs are doing the exact opposite, they are protesting using non forceful methods of opting out of society.
    Yes, feminism has their version of that, lesbian separatism.

  8. #938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    And yet we still see countries that are part of the global market - with technology & capitalism - and are not adapting their gender roles. Without the suffrage movement, is there any reason america wouldn't have done the same?
    There are not any highly sophisticated countries that not have not adopted their gender roles. So let me ask you, how about 1st world countries that aren't American such as European countries did they have the same kind of forceful movements as America? and they still adopted their gender roles. Countries that Opress men also opress women this is why countries like Saudia rabia and Islam do not carry out the same standards of gender equality such as European and American countries. America wouldn't have done the same because America's fundamental values are not synonymous with the values of the middle east they are not nearly as oppressive.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Yes, feminism has their version of that, lesbian separatism.
    COOL and we all know how well that worked out right? MGTOW is much more affective at non acting than women are. Men in society are expected to act and contribute when men opt out it has much greater impacts to society than when women opt out.

  9. #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I do believe in free will. We will not see it in reality, however, until social pressures to follow gender roles subside.
    So yeah, it just seems as if a lot of women are “choosing” to be nurses. The funny and probably the most fascinating thing about all of this is that I think even if social pressures were to change, a lot of women would still choose that profession or some other service oriented job. Like I can put myself in the shoes of certain women with very skinny slender beautiful bodies, they know that certain jobs would be way too much for them to handle, that it actually might make sense for them to start a career in Hollywood, especially if they are conscious of their physical beauty too.

    So the supervisors are women, but men get "higher quality positions"? I wonder what these are. Actually, I see no evidence to support your claim.
    Have you ever gotten a job? You do understand they have to review your performance periodically right?

    In addition, I suspect in a job such as nursing, where it used to be predominantly women (even dating back decades ago), when man starts out, they might actually have to start out on entry-level (this is something I remember after doing a research interview project from high school in which I actually interviewed a “charge nurse” who was female) just like anybody else. Somewhere along the line, as the years progressed, men must have climbed the ladder quicker, for let’s assume it was the opposite, that men were the supervisors, how would they get there in the first place in a job where pretty much virtually all the supervisors were female? You don’t think that a charge nurse who was likely a female decades ago had a say in someone’s (man or woman) performance?


    Assuming for the sake of discussion that you are correct and we can generalize that men are bigger and especially stronger than women, which makes them more suited for certain jobs. We should then reserve those jobs that require raw physical strength for men: trash collectors, nightclub bouncers, roustabouts, hospital orderlies, paramedics, longshoremen, many construction jobs, many professional sports, and the infantry. Let's throw in all the marines and special forces while we are at it.
    Yeah, how many were women with regard to the Seal team that took out Bin Laden?

    This leaves women with most jobs in medicine, law, government, business, science and engineering, performing and visual arts, and education, since raw physical strength is not required. We've already covered astronauts and fighter pilots. Elsewhere in the military we can throw in fields like military intelligence, acquisition, cyber security, communications, administration, and many technical specialties. I think men would feel like they had the short end of the stick were labor divided based on statistical brute strength. Even though I'm a woman, I would agree. This is why I prefer gender not be a factor at all. Either someone can do the job, or he/she cannot.
    I don’t disagree with you on that one. As I have said before, I just think “some” jobs are better for women…..which means “some” jobs are better for men…..

    So if men have covered the physical strength jobs, this leaves the nonphysical, and it doesn’t mean that men can’t do those jobs too…..just like women…..as I have said earlier……

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    In those days, even housework was labor intensive, as was the agricultural work that farm women did, and later the factory work they did after the industrial revolution. This last was particularly lacking in safety measures. There were also jobs in medicine, law, clerical work, teaching, crafts, and commerce that were no more labor intensive than the average housewife's day. These were mostly off-limits to women, however, regardless of ability and interest.
    The thing is, men might have been able to do all of that in half the time it takes a woman. Same thing with today. Just because someone (man or woman) doesn’t do something, doesn’t mean that they aren’t able or aren’t capable. It could simply just be the act of delegating, which I believe is a concept taught in a business management course. This act of delegation isn’t meant to be an act of discrimination but about what it means to be a good leader, and seeing who can do what at best.

  10. #940
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    There are not any highly sophisticated countries that not have not adopted their gender roles. So let me ask you, how about 1st world countries that aren't American such as European countries did they have the same kind of forceful movements as America?
    Yes actually, except Finland that kind of already had it going. Some had their own revolutions, for others it was part of the instability during the revolutions of the two world wars as an opportunity for it (For instance in France the feminist movement took part of the French liberation movement in fighting the German occupation - they've gained the vote when France got it's independence). The exception seems to be countries that were more recent to gain their democracy and didn't do a gender divide to start with.

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    America wouldn't have done the same because America's fundamental values are not synonymous with the values of the middle east they are not nearly as oppressive.
    If more extreme and oppressive values are able to coexist with technology & capitalism, why wouldn't the more moderate American ones? If a Saudi man can drive back from an IT job using a modern car & GPS signal to his modern home where his wives aren't allowed to leave anywhere without him or show their own hair, kiss them and log online to order something from china while they cook for him using a self cleaning oven, What was there to stop american society from maintaining it's own traditional gender roles and taking the same route?

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    COOL and we all know how well that worked out right? MGTOW is much more affective at non acting than women are. Men in society are expected to act and contribute when men opt out it has much greater impacts to society than when women opt out.
    Both movements face the same lack of sustainability - nobody to transfer the ideology to in the next generation.

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