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  1. #901
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    The differences that we take for granted between men and women are narrowing slowly but surely. In the past women couldn't own land without being married, couldn't teach after they were married, and pretty much were considered incomplete and basically children until they changed 'ownership' from their fathers to their husbands. It seems like feminists are trying to overcompensate for bad treatment in the past by demanding treatment now that almost touches on special priveledges.

    I am sure I am going to regret getting reinvolved in this... But oh well.

  2. #902
    Senior Member jixmixfix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluRoses View Post
    Welcome back!

    Thanks for telling me I am right, but I am right in that women have more equality now than 100 years ago, NOT that women have more privilege than men do now.

  3. #903
    Senior Member jixmixfix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    The differences that we take for granted between men and women are narrowing slowly but surely. In the past women couldn't own land without being married, couldn't teach after they were married, and pretty much were considered incomplete and basically children until they changed 'ownership' from their fathers to their husbands. It seems like feminists are trying to overcompensate for bad treatment in the past by demanding treatment now that almost touches on special priveledges.

    I am sure I am going to regret getting reinvolved in this... But oh well.
    Women weren't treated poorly they were sheltered from responsibility due to their biological functions/limitations. No man or husband "owned" a women, she wouldn't be able to survive or thrive on her own at the time without support from a man.
    "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

    -Voltaire

  4. #904
    Senior Member jixmixfix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Women against feminism is very crucial in changing the social justice system. Men aren't able to speak their minds to the issues today because they are viewed as misogynists or "not a real man".
    "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

    -Voltaire

  5. #905
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Women weren't treated poorly they were sheltered from responsibility due to their biological functions/limitations. No man or husband "owned" a women, she wouldn't be able to survive or thrive on her own at the time without support from a man.
    Only because laws, rules, and customs denied her this chance. We've been through this before.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Look, the fact that most nurses are female shows that it is indeed a job desired by and for females. This is of course, unless you don’t believe in freewill?
    I do believe in free will. We will not see it in reality, however, until social pressures to follow gender roles subside.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    But isn’t it interesting that men seem to get the “higher quality” positions? What’s even more interesting is that it is entirely possible that there supervisors might actually be female too, thus seeing the greater performance by men.
    So the supervisors are women, but men get "higher quality positions"? I wonder what these are. Actually, I see no evidence to support your claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Not really. The truth is that men are bigger and stronger than women and while they may not be able to subdue every individual, they would be able to do it better than women can. It’s called a comparison.

    I think you missed the point. I am just saying that some jobs are better for men when it comes to brute force. For women, because they seem to have such endurance as you pointed out, it’s more appropriate for them to box themselves at the back office, they might actually handle customer complaints on the phone better too (sitting in a chair all day demonstrates great endurance). In other words, trying to encourage women to take jobs that a man might do better in reduces efficiency and effectiveness, after all, human beings are human resources, to serve the purpose of being maximized and exploited in order to reap the maximum rewards possible.
    Assuming for the sake of discussion that you are correct and we can generalize that men are bigger and especially stronger than women, which makes them more suited for certain jobs. We should then reserve those jobs that require raw physical strength for men: trash collectors, nightclub bouncers, roustabouts, hospital orderlies, paramedics, longshoremen, many construction jobs, many professional sports, and the infantry. Let's throw in all the marines and special forces while we are at it.

    This leaves women with most jobs in medicine, law, government, business, science and engineering, performing and visual arts, and education, since raw physical strength is not required. We've already covered astronauts and fighter pilots. Elsewhere in the military we can throw in fields like military intelligence, acquisition, cyber security, communications, administration, and many technical specialties. I think men would feel like they had the short end of the stick were labor divided based on statistical brute strength. Even though I'm a woman, I would agree. This is why I prefer gender not be a factor at all. Either someone can do the job, or he/she cannot.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #906
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Women against feminism is very crucial in changing the social justice system. Men aren't able to speak their minds to the issues today because they are viewed as misogynists or "not a real man".
    Women who are against feminism don't understand feminism. Plain and simple.
    Friends, waffles, work

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  7. #907
    Senior Member jixmixfix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Only because laws, rules, and customs denied her this chance. We've been through this before.
    Yes and it would of been completely stupid for women at the time to do so and most women at the time would agree as well. Would you have worked full time hours at coal mine steel mill and construction? with little to no safety regulations? due to the lack of technology most of the jobs at the time were labor intensive. This is also why many of the women in third world countries still stay at home as well. Women in society were valued for their reproductive ability and in order for a society to flourish they were protected and secluded from high risk high intensive labor jobs. Feminism is completely toxic it pays no mention to these important facts.
    "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

    -Voltaire

  8. #908
    Senior Member jixmixfix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Showbread View Post
    Women who are against feminism don't understand feminism. Plain and simple.
    No women who are against feminism are women who value logic and facts and aren't complying to what the media and society claim about men. Women against feminism are the the ones who truly understand what feminism has become they are humanitarians.
    "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

    -Voltaire

  9. #909
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    Quote Originally Posted by Showbread View Post
    Women who are against feminism don't understand feminism. Plain and simple.
    Do you think they don't have access to the dictionary? They know what feminism claims to be just as much as you do, It's because believe in the premise without getting blinded by the "us vs. them" rethorics that allows them to see a contradiction with what feminism is in practice.

    The feminism umbrella semantics are skewing this discussion a bit, so lets be more specific: In an historical context, the actual criticism of most of these women could be seen as - and is in fact a repetition of - the now forgotten individualist feminism movement vs. what was once considered to be the radical feminist movement. The reason this takes the frame of women vs. feminism is not that reasonable branches of feminism never existed, it's that in been critical of the rest of the feminist movement they got kicked out of the book club.

    And I mean that quite literally: The older generation of individualist feminists have lived through hell throughout the 80s and 90s, they've seen feminists debates getting protested and petitioned against by feminists for allowing them to speak, they've seen hate mail and death threats, they've seen refused publication for fear of been association with them and their own attempt as a publication getting banned from gender studies in more and more universities, they've seen themselves getting shunned and even fired by feminist political organizations. Many just left and stopped writing, a few brave ones keep the name "individualist feminist" as a badge of pride for having survived the battle - and I admire their bravery for doing so - but it's a battle they've lost. They might do a better job then any other feminist for fitting the intended definition of feminism, but within feminism as a social movement, they have gotten marginalized into oblivion for the crime of critical thinking.

    The younger generation of would be individualist feminists have no living branch of feminism they might have associated themselves with, and many of them might have never heard the term, but they are a lot more aware of what is going on in current feminism. They usually start from the premise of believing in equal rights for both genders, but in the process of educating themselves - reading feminist authors and following the actions and policies of feminist organisations - they chose to not get lost in "us vs. them" rethorics and instead kept a critical eye open not only to how others defy their beliefs in equality but to how feminists defy their beliefs in equality. It's a bit hard to blame the patriarchy for all forms of gender discrimination when doing so without bias requires including feminist organizations as some of the biggest fingers of the patriarchy. While many self-proclaimed feminist haven't gotten the update since the suffrage movement, these women did, not for a lack of understanding but it's the process of understanding that has turned them off feminism in the first place.

    You can disagree with their beliefs, you can question and argue their claims and rational, and I can say with near certainty that at least the ones I've had the pleasure of knowing will welcome that level of reasoned debate. But to call them ignorant about feminism does nothing but showcase your own, and frankly is a level of disrespect they do not deserve. What do you think it says about the feminist movement when it's speakers try to shame and trivialize women for having contrary opinions to your own?

  10. #910

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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    And when the self-identified feminists on the forum (as well as just about every single one I have met offline) distance themselves from those positions until they're blue in the mouth, does that not suggest that these positions are in fact not an essential part of feminism (or gender egalitarianism or whatever you decide to baptise the baby) but a fringe phenomenon and an all too easy strawman?

    So why keep beating that dead horse about those few extremists rather than join forces for a fairer society for everyone?
    Because that's how they can win. By using rhetoric to deliberately alter the meaning of established terms like "feminist" until they're ridiculous, they can make feminists look silly. It's easier to turn "feminist" into a slur than to actually argue against the tenets of feminism. It already works for American politicians; look at how the word "liberal" has been twisted into such an ugly slur that nobody wants to be one, and how the word "patriot" has been deliberately used as a catchall descriptor for conservatives while taking advantage of the word's positive connotation to give conservatism a shiny glow. These things don't happen by accident; deliberately changing the meaning of words is a potent tool in culture wars, and feminism is the latest target.
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