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Thread: 3rd wave feminism

  1. #861
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    There are common threads within the multiple feminist narratives. I don't think I ever denied that. Gender equality, being one. And, patriarchy being an unjust social system (the power dynamics in a socially constructed society).
    Ok, so when you meant by this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    It also points to the issue that when people think of feminism, they already have a very stereotypical, and narrow, view of what constitutes as feminism, and then, goes on to critique that, and only that, as if therein lies the issues with ALL of feminist narrative. Ignorant, at best. Erroneous, at worst.
    You weren't saying that feminism can't be generalized, but made an argument of scope, that the commonality isn't quite as narrow as others might think it is, which then turns out to be a red herring because you then go on to include the very elements that triggered the critique at the "narrow stereotypes" of feminism as common threads within feminist narratives.... So, kind of pointless, but yeah, not what I thought you meant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Oh, hells no! That would be counterproductive. We need all hands on deck. I think we need to move away from this language of "dominates"/whose turn it is to dominate. At least, once away from the bedrooms of consenting adults. That would be a good first start.
    Looking at it now, it kind of seems like missed rex's comparing how the american feminist movement has traditionally excluded black women rights from their fight beyond lip service while expecting them to fight with them as women, meaning a group A that is more important then group B scenario, now they do the same in willing to include gender inequality issues that harm either genders while making it clear they are following a very particular narrative of blame and hold one group's issues as the ones worth representing and the other's as a debatable lip service. As long as the focus on that narrative maintains itself as a common thread within feminism, the criticism applies, and so is the barrier for "having all hands on deck".

    TL-DR: The HeForShe notion is a bit exclusive on who comes after the "For"
    (Beyond the problematic nature of portraying "she" as a damsel in distress)
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  3. #863

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    First waves, however unpleasant and misguided, bring the scent the new and the promise of wetness rushing into dry, dry places. On them ride original people. Second waves carry copycats, often wise and well-meaning, but ultimately boring and pedantic. Third waves are for fools believing that the turn of the tide signals revolution. Let them eat sand!
    -- Leviticus 1:2

  4. #864

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Looking at it now, it kind of seems like missed rex's comparing how the american feminist movement has traditionally excluded black women rights from their fight beyond lip service while expecting them to fight with them as women, meaning a group A that is more important then group B scenario, now they do the same in willing to include gender inequality issues that harm either genders while making it clear they are following a very particular narrative of blame and hold one group's issues as the ones worth representing and the other's as a debatable lip service. As long as the focus on that narrative maintains itself as a common thread within feminism, the criticism applies, and so is the barrier for "having all hands on deck".

    TL-DR: The HeForShe notion is a bit exclusive on who comes after the "For"
    (Beyond the problematic nature of portraying "she" as a damsel in distress)
    Ok, let's use Rex's example of racism.

    Do you think only black people should be advocating against issues of racism targeted towards black people? Even if the blame is on the white privileged society, and oppressive systems of power in place, that gave rise to the racism? Does following such "skewed" narrative, which is the only way to understand the root of the issues in place, mean that whites should not/could not be active participants in advocacy? Because if white people were ever to be advocates against racism, it would only be lip service? They'd be perpetuating this "damsel in distress" phenomenon? They'd only be used by black people to further their "agenda"?

    WhitesForBlacks <- if this sounds ridiculous to you, you can understand why HeForShe sounds equally ridiculous to me.

    Any other exercise in othering you want to do?

    TL;DR: The issue is not with what follows "For", the issue is there needs to be a "For" in between the groups, in the first place. Injustice is injustice. If you need to figure out which "team" you're on, and, drawing a line to set up the teams, before fighting for injustice, you're not really worried about the injustice, in the first place. That's lip service.

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    Analytical Dreamer Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    I do concede that female competitive spirit exists, the question then becomes why no female racing drivers in main competition? I'd suspect some random irrational sexist thinking involved but I don't know of any.
    see below

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    If the representation seen on the media is correct I'd reckon it might have something to do with the women not weighing in at somewhere around bovine levels. It's easy to sit on a guy when you weight as much as a car.
    And it's easy to control a person, including forcing or keeping him on the ground, using arm or wrist locks or similar with minimal force, UNLESS the suspect is so crazed or drugged up that he is literally feeling no pain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The one that still gets me is the wedding industry. It's all "her day" and everything is geared around a little girls dream.
    This is why there are so few women race car drivers. From babyhood they are raised to aspire to being princess of their own wedding day, not another Danica Patrick.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Do you think only black people should be advocating against issues of racism targeted towards black people? Even if the blame is on the white privileged society, and oppressive systems of power in place, that gave rise to the racism?
    Ah yes, exactly the same, that's why american prisons are full of black people and women.

    Missed irony aside, the fact you believe in your strawman disproves your original point by showing that you do blindly view gender discrimination as facing only one gender and imagine an all powerful patriarchy, which means that people aren't misrepresenting your version of feminism based on a narrow extreme view inspired by other feminists, though real gender egalitarians feminists will probably feel misrepresented by people who's experience and associations with feminism were with "feminists" like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Does following such "skewed" narrative, which is the only way to understand the root of the issues in place

    "The one only way"? That's a dogma, it isn't a method of gaining understanding it's an agenda based guide for cherry picking, which is obviously enough for some people, but it turns out plenty of women are intellectually honest individuals who can arrive with their own understandings. How many of those do you think should give them up for "the one only way to understand it"?

    This is probably the reason more and more women prefer to not identify as feminists, and honestly, why would they want to give up their own insights and understanding for "the one true way"? Why should they? Why should the rest of us? Why should I? What is so worth while about that agenda that we should be predisposed to claiming it the one true way and filter reality through it's limited lens?

  7. #867
    Lex Parsimoniae Array Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    No offense, but you didn't understand the point that I was illustrating.

    Are all types of feminism, discrimination? If so, explain why.

    Are all forms of racism, discrimination? Yes!

    In order for something to be a parallel for comparison, it must first be...a parallel.
    A parallel is something that travels along similar lines and follows a similar direction. It is not the same path nor the same direction. Otherwise parallel lines would collide or just merge.

    You're drawing a difference between feminism and sexism. If so, what's the male version of feminism? Who looks out for man's rights? Would that not indicate that those rights are and should be different to a females? Isn't that making a separation without context based on sex? Does that not classify as sexism?
    So you're arguing terminology? So, if feminism was called another name, like, say, Dickerydoodoo, it would be okay? A mere renaming would take away the (perceived) poisoning and combative stance, and solve all those problems? Is that what you're proposing? Is that a logical decision of yours, or an emotive one?
    It's been done many times. It usually goes by names like sales or politics but call it what you will it's basic psychology. Do you call someone "challenging" or "argumentative"? Both can be about the exact same thing but the nuance is different and so it's received differently by the listener. This is why you have so many words to describe things.

    To turn your argument around, do you cling to the term feminism because it has innate virtue or are you doing it because you attach emotion to the word and want to keep it?

    Yes, just like a woman with kids who work, is a part-time mother. Or, an atheist who understands why other people believe in a god, is a part-time atheist. Or, a capitalist who is for responsible capitalism but against unrestrained capitalism should call himself (or herself) a part-time capitalist.

    Am I doing your "logic" right?
    Oh you must be one of those people who just uses labels because it's convenient and doesn't consider the implications. I have one for you, myopic.

    If you, for your own reasons, decide to give yourself a label then you really should seek to find out what that label might mean to others otherwise you may think that jingoism is a form of eastern meditation.

    Chomsky is shaking his head at you. Stereotypes, by definition, only applies to individuals; not all definitions of words in a language.
    God's could shake fingers at me and it would not make one whit of difference if I'm hearing about it third hand. I don't know chomsky and have little opinion on his worth to make comment. Now if you could illuminate why you believe this without abdicating the responsibility of reason to a third party I'd be more than happy to consider it.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    see below


    And it's easy to control a person, including forcing or keeping him on the ground, using arm or wrist locks or similar with minimal force, UNLESS the suspect is so crazed or drugged up that he is literally feeling no pain.


    This is why there are so few women race car drivers. From babyhood they are raised to aspire to being princess of their own wedding day, not another Danica Patrick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    It’s like so obvious that anybody with a decent amount of an intelligent brain would know that two male police officers would be able to hold down one suspect no matter how big or how strong the suspect is. But maybe you’re right, maybe I am having too many positive thoughts about men’s abilities and capabilities though I don’t think I am overstating the case. You see, unlike “two brains being better than one,” I think on a mental level, that may not necessarily be true. But on a physical muscular level? Two physically strong dudes should be able to subdue one physically strong dude maybe unless that one physically strong dude is a professional athlete born with rare physical strength gifts that the average person can’t have.

    As for your point about not having received proper training, I think you are being too pessimistic about women’s abilities and/or capabilities, unless of course, it is a direct reflection of reality itself. I mean, it just seems like some women don’t know how to react properly and immediately in certain situations whereas men, they know better, likely perhaps due to evolutionary psychology (by the way, I am a huge fan of evolutionary psychology or evolutionary biology but that is another long rant best saved for some other time? ) Being the natural “hunters” that they are, they are naturally good at it? In any event, perhaps your point about “proper training” is void anyways because once again, we have to come back to pure physical strength or even just how quickly a woman can react versus a man.
    My muscular 6'4" brother-in-law is a paramedic. His slightly smaller male partner and he occasionally could not restrain an individual man who was seriously high on something, or perhaps even lashing out due to medical seizure. True, they were not taught the hand-to-hand fighting cops have to learn, but their size, strength, and ability to throw a respectable punch were not enough to subdue certain highly out-of-control individuals.

    As for training, if I were pessimistic about women I would not suggest training were the issue. You are right that many women don't know how to react properly and immediately in violent situations. They do not grow up in a culture that expects and encourages that in them as it does in boys. This is why training is so important, especially for women. And forget men as natural hunters. If you want to see fierceness in nature, look for a mother defending her young. Alertness, awareness, reflexes, and even aggression occur naturally in both males and females, though often with different motivations. We have tried to breed it out of girls, or at least suppress it in them, to everyone's detriment.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    And so why should women get paid more if men are doing the harder work of the actual physical act of apprehension?
    Women should not get paid more. Who suggested that they should? Neither should they be paid less for using a different method to accomplish the same end.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    I think you just fail to recognize the pure physical anatomy of the human male compared to the human female. Seriously, it really isn’t that hard.
    I could say the same about you. You seem to think sheer physical size and brute force strength are the measure of someone's worth, and his or her ability to navigate life successfully. It hasn't been like that since the stone age, and I'm not sure it was even then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Anyhoo, is this a matter of nature or nurture? With my own daughter I'm appalled at how everyone goes for cute stuff. Apparently now her hair is too long I can't just use a pair of clippers despite her not giving even half a damn about hair.

    Is the female hangup about looks (I know, contentious but hardly unfounded) part of the female psyche or is it taught from an early age of being made to look pretty?
    Of I was a stay at home dad things would be very different and I hope I can have the proper effect later to ensure my daughter grows up as much of a swine in an argument as my good self and wants things like trousers with usable pockets instead of plastering herself in the advertising logos of overpaid waifs.

    I don't think that this is true. I've seen very competitive women but it tends to be focused in an individual. Perhaps that's why I see so many f males and t females struggle. They are contradicting the expected, men address the object and women address the person? [/QUOTE]
    They are taught, explicitly but mostly implicitly and insidiously. It is the example set for them by the women who (mostly) become their role models. And who says you cannot use clippers? Your daughter's hair is no business but hers and yours. As for the pockets, don't get me started. I refuse to buy anything without pockets, and on the rare occasion I do, I will put them in myself. (Good use of traditional female skill of sewing.) As for female competitiveness, much of it is subsumed into cattiness, passive-aggressiveness, backstabbing, manipulation, and other indirect forms since overt, unapologetic competition is "unladylike".

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Men in nursing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Men in Nursing Occupations | Random Samplings
    Male Nurses: No Longer A Rarity

    Male nurses make up about 10%. Which means females make up 90%. So you are just plain wrong.

    Now, men might be "higher quality" nurses because....perhaps they are better than women?
    I didn't say women are not the majority of nurses. I said many women do not have what you seem to think is the "ideal nurse personality". Big difference. To the extent that nursing involves heavy lifting and supporting large patients, the average man might do better at that part of the job than the average woman. Another good reason to have both men and women in nursing, just as in policing, teaching, and other fields.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  10. #870

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Ah yes, exactly the same, that's why american prisons are full of black people and women.

    Missed irony aside, ...
    I don't think you understand how irony works. When you bring in racism (your red herring) to this discussion to illustrate a point, it's supposedly "ironic", when I do it, it's because I missed the point? How conveniently ironic. I'd have termed it special pleading. But, sure, we'll call it "ironic".

    Which points to the rest of your wrangled response below:

    to bring in racism when the fact you believe in your strawman disproves your original point by showing that you do blindly view gender discrimination as facing only one gender
    How did you conclude that? I'm waiting in anticipation to see how you reached this conclusion. As a fact! no less. (baited breath, right here).

    Do you think white people can be victims of racism? In this society, do you think the majority of discrimination, power imbalance where they're on the lower scale, is faced by black people or white? (let's pretend it's a binary, and that other races are left out of the question)

    Do you know what majority means? Do you think it means 'all'? Is focusing on the majority of where the issues lie, wrong? Does that automatically mean denying the issues of the minority?

    and imagine an all powerful patriarchy, which means that people aren't misrepresenting your version of feminism based on a narrow extreme view inspired by other feminists, though real gender egalitarians feminists will probably feel misrepresented by people who's experience and associations with feminism were with "feminists" like you.
    Not people, you and your kind. You're not the first, nor the last, to try to create your own definition of what you think my "feminism" is/means, for your own convenience, and then, proceed to tilt at windmills....I mean, argue against that manufactured position.

    Oh, those men-hating, whiny feminists, who pretend that only women are the victims, who decry sexism, but are truly sexist themselves because they only want to defend women's rights as if men aren't victims of discrimination, as well! This is what is wrong with feminism, today!

    Am I getting warmer? Strawman, at its finest. Careful that the fire doesn't burn them straws down.

    Since you've shown such interest in my "position", I'd like to know yours. Do you not believe that patriarchy exists?

    "The one only way"? That's a dogma, it isn't a method of gaining understanding it's an agenda based guide for cherry picking, which is obviously enough for some people, but it turns out plenty of women are intellectually honest individuals who can arrive with their own understandings. How many of those do you think should give them up for "the one only way to understand it"?
    The only way to understand the various issues addressed by different schools of feminist thought, is to (1) acknowledge gender inequality, i.e., fight for equal rights and, (2) why the inequality arose and is maintained. It's the broadest term that unites various schools of feminist thoughts and movements.



    This is probably the reason more and more women prefer to not identify as feminists, and honestly, why would they want to give up their own insights and understanding for "the one true way"? Why should they? Why should the rest of us? Why should I? What is so worth while about that agenda that we should be predisposed to claiming it the one true way and filter reality through it's limited lens?
    Ah, and there it is. The inevitable patronizing begins.

    How predictable.

    When you are ready and willing to engage with an open mind, about what my position truly is, let me know. Until then, your agenda bores me. Seen it one too many times, you see.

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