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Thread: 3rd wave feminism

  1. #801
    Strongly Ambivalent Array Ivy's Avatar
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    For the record we both now work for fairly progressive workplaces- his moreso than mine, actually, though I work remotely from a home office so I'm more flexible in the hours I can work. If we were having babies now, he could take 12 weeks off. He worked for a much more conservative, traditional place when our kids were actually born, though, so he got a week and it was vacation time and he was getting calls the whole time. He was lucky to have that, I fully recognize, but it's still unfair IMO.
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  2. #802
    He pronks, too! Array Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I quite like having a job now, as I quite liked staying home with my children then. My husband wished his workplaces had offered him the flexibility to stay home when our kids were little, but paternity leave wasn't really a thing, which sucks. I really think families just need to work it out in the way that works best FOR THEM, but the way things are now, that's very difficult. In many industries/workplaces, men are discouraged from taking time off to be with their children. (I lost count of the number of times my husband said he needed to take an afternoon to take a kid to an appointment and the response was "can't your wife do that?") Then, the women employees are undervalued in the workplace because they will end up taking more time off because their partners can't. What would be better is if both parents were equally supported in both working if they choose, and staying home if they choose, and any variation in between those two choices, without regard to whether the parent is male or female. Paternity leave is becoming a thing which I think is awesome. My brother-in-law got twelve weeks of it, but even though it was a benefit offered by his company, he was still faced with implicit disapproval for actually taking it. That shit needs to change.
    The economy is a thing heavily shaped by old institutions. It's just not flexible enough. The idea of world where men and women both work, and they both have like 30 or 20 hour work weeks, that's just still crazy talk for the most part. It has historically been sexually divided, and because of all of the inflexibility we've been talking about, the avenue of change has mostly been for women to take up 40 hour jobs, and the business world has happily let that become a norm, so now we are all kind of cornered into full time work. In a more fair and rational world, that's probably not how it would have worked.
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  3. #803
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Here are some numbers that actually are from the DOJ:

    DOJ Stats

    Part of the confusion is the difference between the risk of being raped across one's entire lifetime, vs. the risk of being raped in a given year. According to the DOJ, 18% of women have been raped at some point (which is in line with the 1-in-5 figure, which is what I've heard before- not 1-in-4). In one year (2006), about 5% of college-aged women were raped that year.
    Give me the age cohort for the 18% figure please;

    EDIT: Here it is: Kilpatrick, Dean G., Ph.D., Heidi S. Resnick, Ph.D., Kenneth J. Ruggiero, Ph.D., Lauren M. Conoscenti, M.A., and Jenna McCauley, M.S., “Drug-Facilitated, Incapacitated, and Forcible Rape: A National Study,” July 2007. (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/219181.pdf) (December 21, 2011)

    Hmm, that includes incapacitated, and drug facilitated. So as Whoopi Goldberg might have said of Roman Polanski's multiple orifice penetration of a drugged 13-year-old girl in a hot tub, "It wasn't rape rape."

    I might need to read that in more detail.

    Can you give me a link or reference to the 2006 study?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    And ignoring possible alternative explanations because they don't support your point doesn't make something true either.
    I can't help thinking that a possible explanation for that is they've been abused by men or are abusive men, so they just expect men are abusive and perceive threats everywhere that may not really exist.

    For instance, throughout my life, I wasn't abused by men as much as I was by women. Almost without fail, everywhere I go, men are nice to me, so I subconsciously trust it's going to keep happening that way, which influences how I treat men and so it keeps happening that way.

    Its like someone with a partner they suspect to be cheating considering other reasons why he might be talking on the phone at night, ignoring her texts, ect without immediately jumping to the most 'obvious' but possibly incorrect conclusion.
    That's interesting. You're right on! I've never suspected a man that I'm with of cheating and I've never been accused of cheating. I've found men are very loyal creatures. Maybe because I'm a very loyal creature.

    You've probably heard about how people are the most insecure about the things in others that they themselves are guilty of (or have past traumatic experiences). It makes sense a person is going to perceive their partner as cheating if they're cheating (or have been cheated on in the past).

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    Senior Member Array Eskimo2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    I can't help thinking that a possible explanation for that is they've been abused by men or are abusive men, so they just expect men are abusive and perceive threats everywhere that may not really exist.

    For instance, throughout my life, I wasn't abused by men as much as I was by women. Almost without fail, everywhere I go, men are nice to me, so I subconsciously trust it's going to keep happening that way, which influences how I treat men and so it keeps happening that way.


    That's interesting. You're right on! I've never suspected a man that I'm with of cheating and I've never been accused of cheating. I've found men are very loyal creatures. Maybe because I'm a very loyal creature.

    You've probably heard about how people are the most insecure about the things in others that they themselves are guilty of. It makes sense a cheater is going to perceive their partner as cheating if they're cheating.
    Actually that little metaphor thing was a response to the metaphor posted above me, but yeah, you make a really interesting point! Maybe if you believe that you have been unfair to women you might be more aware when others slight them.

    I'm not denying that there is a discrepency as to how different groups are treated as compared to others, I just think it has been really overplayed. Its sort of like going to the ER for a papercut, its just not necessary for something that is on its way to healing on its own with time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    Actually that little metaphor thing was a response to the metaphor posted above me, but yeah, you make a really interesting point! Maybe if you believe that you have been unfair to women you might be more aware when others slight them.

    I'm not denying that there is a discrepency as to how different groups are treated as compared to others, I just think it has been really overplayed. Its sort of like going to the ER for a papercut, its just not necessary for something that is on its way to healing on its own with time.
    Yes. Overplayed and hard to take seriously if one is in the present moment and behind the steering wheel of their life. I see obstacles as opportunities to learn how to build rapport and effectively communicate what I want from people. When that fails, I focus on the things within my control, like packing up and moving on; instead of wasting time feeling sorry for myself and stirring up strife.

    Edit: It's like you said earlier, you can't control people, but you can control yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I tend not to pretend the person on the ground isn't having a heart attack because it's inconvenient.
    If they are sleeping, drunk, dehydrated, etc., its not 'pretending', its a different situation requiring different responses.
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  8. #808
    Level 8 Scumlord Array SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The economy is a thing heavily shaped by old institutions. It's just not flexible enough. The idea of world where men and women both work, and they both have like 30 or 20 hour work weeks, that's just still crazy talk for the most part.
    It's an old idea really and by work I mean wage work. Here is a quote from Simone de Beauvoir:

    "No, we don’t believe that any woman should have this choice. No woman should be authorized to stay at home to raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one. It is a way of forcing women in a certain direction."

    Sex, Society and the Female Dilemma – A Dialogue between Simone de Beauvoir and Betty Friedan; Saturday Review, publicat la 14 Iunie 1975 – p. 18 http://64.62.200.70/PERIODICAL/PDF/S...75jun14/14-24/ She was clarifying her position from her seminal work The Second Sex.

    The cat is out of the bag as it were and dual earners will continue to be the model going forward. Naturally the tradcons will only come kicking and screaming, but over time as they disadvantage their family units more and more from declining wages (in comparison to dual earners) and as being a dual earner becomes easier they will have to adapt.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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    Level 8 Scumlord Array SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    Yes. Overplayed and hard to take seriously if one is in the present moment and behind the steering wheel of their life. I see obstacles as opportunities to learn how to build rapport and effectively communicate what I want from people. When that fails, I focus on the things within my control, like packing up and moving on; instead of wasting time feeling sorry for myself and stirring up strife.

    Edit: It's like you said earlier, you can't control people, but you can control yourself.
    Quite stoic You might like The Obstacle Is the Way: The Timeless Art of Turning Trials into Triumph by Ryan Holiday — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft
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  10. #810
    Alchemist of life Array Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    I think that that is a really good point. One of my biggest problems with the feminism movement is that it just seems to try to force women to go one way, when many may prefer and be happier staying at home. My friends mother stayed home and raised four kids succesfully, but she told me that people have asked her if she had any regrets because she never actually did anything herself. I think that raising a child is every bit as commendable as scaling the career ladder, for a woman and for a man.
    I don't think the feminist movement so much wants to force women to go one way as to ensure that whichever way they go, they truly want to go. Most of the legal and explicit constraints on what women can do are gone, at least in western societies, but there is still considerable expectation and even pressure for women to behave in certain ways, and men in others. It can be hard to determine why someone is really doing something (sometimes even if that someone is yourself). This goes for men as well as women.

    Quote Originally Posted by serenesam View Post
    Maybe it's got nothing to do with gender, just based on performance.

    I mean, I don't know, it just seems like a man is able to do a lot of things, sometimes better than a woman can, just based on physical anatomy. I mean, imagine if we allowed women to be accepted into the NBA, it would be kind of scary, especially since the female might get hurt. That's why there's the WNBA. Because it is necessary.
    Performance is related to education and experience. My friend's daughter interned with a Japanese company, for awhile in the U.S., and for awhile in Japan. She noticed that female interns were given far more responsibility in the U.S. office. In Japan, they mostly fetched coffee and answered the phone. This will not improve their performance and make them ready to take on more responsibility. This tracks all the way back to elementary school, the opportunities girls and boys are encouraged to take, and the examples presented to them. It is one reason my main volunteer activity is educational outreach.

    As for men doing certain things better than women can, there are certain things women can do better than a man. When evaluating an individual for a specific job, however, this is all irrelevant. Individuals are not statistics, and should be judged based on the reality of their abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpankyMcFly View Post
    The cat is out of the bag as it were and dual earners will continue to be the model going forward. Naturally the tradcons will only come kicking and screaming, but over time as they disadvantage their family units more and more from declining wages (in comparison to dual earners) and as being a dual earner becomes easier they will have to adapt.
    Dual earners should be the model going forward. Or more to the point, dual occupation couples. This doesn't mean that both need to work full time all the time, or even that both need to have jobs outside the home. It means every physically and mentally sound adult should be capable of supporting him/herself and his/her family. Primary/sole breadwinners can easily lose their jobs, not to mention become disabled, die, or simply leave their families. As we saw during the recent economic downturn, men lost their jobs sooner and in greater numbers than women. Families were women were unable to pick up the slack no doubt did worse than those where they could.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    For instance, throughout my life, I wasn't abused by men as much as I was by women. Almost without fail, everywhere I go, men are nice to me, so I subconsciously trust it's going to keep happening that way, which influences how I treat men and so it keeps happening that way.
    Men are generally nice to me, too. They are direct, take me seriously, understand me, and treat me with respect. Women play more games. They can be frustratingly indirect, sometimes manipulative, overly familiar, and I often feel we are speaking different languages. I wouldn't consider any of this abusive, but it isn't very pleasant.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 04-12-2015 at 12:32 PM. Reason: word left out
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