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  1. #751

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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    ^Abused where and how? He claimed that 3rd wave feminism destroyed the family (often while being disrespectful, dismissive, and provoking others). I don't believe he said anything about it destroying his family.
    You'll have to ask him. Since ya'll ran him out of here, I guess you'll never know. I hope he's in a better place. He deserves better.

  2. #752
    Saponi Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    You'll have to ask him. Since ya'll ran him out of here, I guess you'll never know. I hope he's in a better place. He deserves better.
    Perhaps we will. We can see by the contents of this entire thread that even when people deserve better, it doesn't mean that they will receive it...men and women both.
    Likes LonestarCowgirl liked this post

  3. #753
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Would anybody like to talk about feminism?

  4. #754
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke O View Post
    Would anybody like to talk about feminism?
    If you just walk into any place and say that, it's a great way to make people uncomfortable.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If you just walk into any place and say that, it's a great way to make people uncomfortable.
    I'd rather say that on a thread about feminism than burst into your average Wild West saloon and announce it
    Likes LonestarCowgirl liked this post

  6. #756
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    In terms of "diversity", if we all belong to clubs and represent larger concerns all the time, where does the individual exist?
    In the combinations. When I went to college, I was a bit disappointed that for everything I new how to do, I could find others doing it better. Then I realized: I didn't know anyone who did the particular combination of things, skills, interests that I had. Chemically our bodies are quite similar, but out of that still comes plenty of diversity and beauty. You mentioned not wanting to see the distinctions between groups any more. It would be bad not to see the distinctions between individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Just taking feminism for a moment. What happens if you're the kind of female who wants to be a stay home mum and have a strong leadership type as her husband? Is she not a feminist? What about the notion that this is what she wants and any attempt to undermine her decision is an isn't to her right to self determine? Consider then a woman who wants to be a car mechanic but is a complete barbie doll and the stereotypical blonde? Does she fit feminism? I doubt it'd be most people's perception. So why can't these people be Sue and Abi without the attached name for something they may or may not fully support or have any opinion on? Why can't their individual name stand for their beliefs? Isn't that diversity at its core? Who ever said that diversity is reliant upon being able to define what culture you are from? Surely that'd be less diversity?
    The stay-at-home mom is a feminist if she she truly wishes to live that life and is following her dream to do so. She is not a feminist if she does it out of pressure, the expectations of others, or even not bothering to figure out what she wants out of life (a vacuum of will). Same with your Barbie mechanic. If she looks that way because she enjoys it and finds it fun/pretty/ etc, that is feminist. If she is doing it just to satisfy the expectations of men around her, or manipulate with her looks, etc. then no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    IPersonally I love the people who get described as "weird". They follow their own path and their name becomes a descriptor in and of itself. Those people who you comment on with "well you know what they're like".

    Personally I champion the idea that everyone should be their own sovereign type, culture and group. Screw convention. Screw the idea that getting a whole bunch of people to shout "hell yeah" for a feeling of validity.
    OK, but where does this leave your stay-at-home mom and Barbie mechanic? Especially the first: is she weird, and screwing convention?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I don't think I've seen much outright hostility toward traditional feminine qualities, but there's a definite emphasis on masculine ones that took prominence. My main explanation for this is that likeness and equality are an obvious match. Different but equal has always been a tortured concept with a rather poor track record. On the other hand, feminism has always basically been a solidarity movement of a sort, it's been about women focusing on women and only recently has it been somewhat normal to broaden beyond that. But what happened is that addressing anything about men was seen as focusing on men, and therefore not what feminism was about. So if a group wants to demonstrate equality with another group which they refuse to change, it means they can't bring that group to them or even meet halfway with that group. They have to basically meet the other group at their place, become like them.
    I have had this come up elsewhere, the idea of feminists rejecting the traditionally feminine. I think part of this is due to the fact that some rather negative things have been associated with femininity, whereas their more positive counterparts are associated with masculinity. I think this reflects less how men and women really are, and more how men especally want to see themselves, highlighting the contrast with women. Women who display these same positive traits then get labelled "masculine", so as not to disprove the rule. Another example of men taking the better part for themselves.

    As for more concrete traditionally feminine things, they frequently are lesser in nature: less practical, durable, comfortable, versatile, effective, economical. I tend to avoid them for good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I actually don't believe there is an inherent difference between male and female psychology that is beyond trivial. .
    Or as I have put it: men and women are not so different that a double standard is justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    I just believe that that particular bit of information that women are paid less than men is misleading, does not account for all the variables it should, and has been passed around and promoted to such a huge degree that it has become the easy 'trump card' all feminists think that they can throw down.
    It depends on the analysis. From what I have read there has been progress on women and men getting paid for doing the same job with the same experience/skill level. I suspect most of the gap nowadays comes from women having lower paying jobs. Some of this may be due to hiring and promotion discrimination, but I bet women just don't go after the higher paying jobs as often as men do. If you don't play, you can't win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    I am a woman. I do not believe I have ever been discriminated against to a significant enough degree to have it ever really have prevented me from doing anything that I have wanted to do. I'm sure other women have had different experiences, but I believe everyone has been discriminated against before to an extent. Life is not fair, you cannot make it 100% fair, you cannot control other people and the way they treat you, all you can do is control how you react and try to thrive despite it.
    The first part has been my experience as well. Still, I have heard plenty of horror stories, from friends and acquaintances as well as in what I have read. I wonder sometimes how I escaped it for the most part. I dared venture the speculation on another thread that my own actions might have had something to do with it. This did not go over well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    You're right, it's not just about you. Men are abused and discriminated against too by controlling women that use manipulation and control tactics to undermine men.
    Women have long used these sorts of indirect tactics to try to get what they want, being discouraged and deterred from more direct and above-board methods. This is truly unfortunate, and a bad habit many women still need to shed.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
    Likes Ivy, Luke O, N/A liked this post

  7. #757

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    You're right, it's not just about you. Men are abused and discriminated against too by controlling women that use manipulation and control tactics to undermine men. Does anyone hear these men? I do and I heard @jixmixfix loud and clear. Unfortunately, he was disrespected, dismissed, and provoked to anger until he was silenced. Would it kill y'all to listen to your fellow forum members with an open heart and try to put yourself in their shoes?

    Y'all appear to be playing dumb and playing games of semantics with the word feminist. The bottom line is, men are abused and discriminated against by a toxic breed of women. If the word feminist doesn't fit Jixmixfix's denotation because y'all are stuck on the connotation, then call the women assholes or whatever you will, but there's no need to dismiss Jix's position on the topic entirely when someone is trying to tell you they're being abused (or witnessing abuse).


    I've never been discriminated against at work, but if I was, there are plenty of non-abusive opportunities out there, I'd pack my junk and leave.
    I didn't get anywhere in this thread where the OP was trying to tell anyone he was being abused. I also think its pointless in blaming feminism for the behavior of individual women. I gauge people on their individuality rather than their color, race, or sex, rather than a movement which is aimed at leveling the field for women. I have personally witnessed a certain breed of patriarchial men who definitely believe implicitly in their "superiority" based on the fact that they are "The man" and ridicule and put down their wives accordingly. One particular relationship was between old freinds of mine and another a couple who lived next door to me for a good 10 years. Its pretty interesting the kinds of things over-heard (whether you want to or not) when you live in townhomes or row homes in the city. I felt sorry for both of these women. Because both of them did not deserve the treatment they received from their long-term partners. I did not involve myself in speaking out for my neighbor simply because they were an older couple and his abuse was aimed at her within the privacy of the four walls of their home. In situations with the "old freinds" I definitely spoke up in defense of my freind Trish (a true sweetheart) who rarely spoke out or stood up for herself when her partner made demeaning and demoralizing comments to her. As a matter of fact, I remember one particular instance where he approached my husband at the time, (after I argued with him in defense of his wife) and told him to keep me away from his wife because I might teach her something. Which (coming from him) I took as a compliment. They ended up divorcing (which came as no surprise). And it was probably the best thing which could have happened for her.

    And for the record, I have never been subjected to sexual discrimination in the workplace. Sexism and sexual harrasment, yes, but discrimination, no. I'm remembering several interviews. Two specific instances come to mind. One during which I was asked to give my exact measurements (as if disclosure of my measurements had anything at all to do with my ability to carry out the responsibilities associated with the position) , and another in which the Attorney had said "I'm not going to be paying you to sit around all day and look pretty" (as if I expected that my looks would absolve me of actually working). In both cases I felt the comments were sexist, unfair, and insulting.

    Also, the owner of the company I mentioned earlier in this thread (who had been sued for sending sexually explicit text messages to a different female co-worker) had made business lunch meetings soley for the purpose of meeting with me to the exclusion of my fellow male co-workers for the purpose of having the opportunity to see me face to face and repeatedly ask if I would meet him for dinner (with the full knowledge that I was married at the time). When I told him that I would not under any circumstances meet him for dinner. He responded with "what your children don't know won't hurt them". I made it very clear I thought his behavior was inappropriate and unacceptable. As a result, immediately following the lunch meeting, he repeatedly called to profusely apologize throughout the rest of the day.

    *noteworthy, the long-term freind with whom I had issues about his attitude and abuse of his wife was a "prussian" 6w5.

  8. #758

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    Quote Originally Posted by violett View Post
    I didn't get anywhere in this thread where the OP was trying to tell anyone he was being abused. I also think its pointless in blaming feminism for the behavior of individual women. I gauge people on their individuality rather than their color, race, or sex, rather than a movement which is aimed at leveling the field for women. I have personally witnessed a certain breed of patriarchial men who definitely believe implicitly in their "superiority" based on the fact that they are "The man" and ridicule and put down their wives accordingly. One particular relationship was between old freinds of mine and another a couple who lived next door to me for a good 10 years. Its pretty interesting the kinds of things over-heard (whether you want to or not) when you live in townhomes or row homes in the city. I felt sorry for both of these women. Because both of them did not deserve the treatment they received from their long-term partners. I did not involve myself in speaking out for my neighbor simply because they were an older couple and his abuse was aimed at her within the privacy of the four walls of their home. In situations with the "old freinds" I definitely spoke up in defense of my freind Trish (a true sweetheart) who rarely spoke out or stood up for herself when her partner made demeaning and demoralizing comments to her. As a matter of fact, I remember one particular instance where he approached my husband at the time, (after I argued with him in defense of his wife) and told him to keep me away from his wife because I might teach her something. Which (coming from him) I took as a compliment. They ended up divorcing (which came as no surprise). And it was probably the best thing which could have happened for her.

    And for the record, I have never been subjected to sexual discrimination in the workplace. Just thought I would make sure to mention
    Do you like men? If so, how do you miss the abuse? One example, is when he mentioned how men are often depicted as blubbering idiots (being bullied by women) on TV and he's right about that. The men that I'm around don't act like blubbering idiots in real life, so why are the majority of them depicted that way on TV? Young women grow up being brainwashed by our media into thinking men are stupid and that it's okay to emasculate men and treat them poorly.

    (For more examples, please reread the thread.)

  9. #759

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    Do you like men? If so, how do you miss the abuse? One example, is when he mentioned how men are often depicted as blubbering idiots (being bullied by women) on TV and he's right about that. The men that I'm around don't act like blubbering idiots in real life, so why are the majority of them depicted that way on TV? Young women grow up being brainwashed by our media into thinking men are stupid and that it's okay to emasculate men and treat them poorly.

    (For more examples, please reread the thread.)
    I think you should try wiping the brown off of your nose. And, I saw insults initiated by the OP and others on the thread responding to those insults and responding accordingly.

    Also, I am not going to dignify your question as to whether or not I like men with an answer.

  10. #760

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    Quote Originally Posted by violett View Post
    I think you should try wiping the brown off of your nose. And, I saw insults initiated by the OP and others on the thread responding to those insults and responding accordingly.
    I think you need to stop talking to me like that. You're disrespectful.

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