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  1. #721
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Showbread View Post
    I have crazy respect for women who can do this! I really don't think I'll have the capacity for it.
    I can't lie, it was draining. It was also extremely rewarding and I wouldn't give anything for the time I spent with them. Not just because I, you know, love them and all. It was also completely fascinating to watch a little human go from complete helplessness to self-sufficiency, work out what language is and how to make it, etc.
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  2. #722
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    The apparent disdain that most feminist have for anything that is actually feminine has always been troubling to me. It's like somewhere along the way the movement bought into the idea that in order to be considered a man's equal, we had to be able to beat men at their own game. Then somehow things went a step further where not only did a woman have to be able to "out dude the dudes" to be considered empowered, but she had to look down on roles and traits that were traditionally considered feminine. If that's not the definition of misogyny, I don't know what is.
    I don't think I've seen much outright hostility toward traditional feminine qualities, but there's a definite emphasis on masculine ones that took prominence. My main explanation for this is that likeness and equality are an obvious match. Different but equal has always been a tortured concept with a rather poor track record. On the other hand, feminism has always basically been a solidarity movement of a sort, it's been about women focusing on women and only recently has it been somewhat normal to broaden beyond that. But what happened is that addressing anything about men was seen as focusing on men, and therefore not what feminism was about. So if a group wants to demonstrate equality with another group which they refuse to change, it means they can't bring that group to them or even meet halfway with that group. They have to basically meet the other group at their place, become like them.

    I think it's encouraging that there have been some changes where it's not as weird to have a man identified as a feminist, or for feminists to talk about the nature of masculinity or a man's identity more, because I think that will ultimately be necessary for the achievement of feminist goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    I'm not a man. I don't want to be a man.
    I'm not a woman, and I don't want to be a woman, but I tend to think that has no relevance to my behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    I am a woman and therefore anything that I do is womanly, whether I am running a board room or baking cupcakes for a school bake sale.
    What would it mean to do something womanly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Men and women are in fact different in some respects.
    I actually don't believe there is an inherent difference between male and female psychology that is beyond trivial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    The point of equality should not be to deny those differences, but ascribe the same fundamental value to that which is feminine as we do that which is masculine.
    I think we decide what is feminine and masculine.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #723
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I live in freaking ground zero of all kinds of radicalism, all the Berkeley feminists I've met are pretty reasonable people. The people I know are younger, went to Cal State, or Smith College and really do feel that women should be able to have the same access than men, should be able to stay home, should be able to work, that men should be able to stay home, should be able to work.

    I really don't see why the fact that there are some women out there who you all feel are hostile means that there is no problem, and that there shouldn't be some directed effort to make sure that everybody has equal opportunity and equal facility in the world. I don't see why you, @Frosty6226 and @Xander are expending much more time in arguing against the whole movement on grounds of semantics or misconceived public image than supporting the change in the world that would be good, calling it whatever the fuck you want.

    I feel this is all very simple, and the complicated parts are completely ignorable B.S..
    Likes Ivy, Julius_Van_Der_Beak, Red Herring liked this post

  4. #724
    Expensive Handbasket Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Feminist who stayed home with my kids. Never had any other feminists tell me I sold out the cause or anything. I feel like this is a bit of a straw(wo)man.
    I did, too and I actually got put down for 'doing nothing'. You just stay home with your kids? like my days were full of leisure, Barney and doing something-close-to-nothing. It's an ugly thing to say to people and it's really just code for "you damn well better not being standing around just taking up space." This thing of women being useful in order to be allowed to stick around...but others getting to decide what is useful.

  5. #725
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    I posted on an earlier page what I thought would be decent solutions/my opinions on what I thought was tangibly fair.

    I've mentioned before, I am not against everyone being treated fairly, I just think fair treatment should be earned on an individual basis. I would respect a 5 year old girl if she impressed me the same as I wouldn't respect a 40 year old man if I didn't feel it was earned.

    I try to be polite to everyone and give everyone a chance. I say though, if the woman chooses not to stand her ground and fight for herself as an individual then she does not deserve the same as the man who does just so society can fill some sort of gender equality quota.

    I'm honeslty arguing in this thread because I am bored, and I am not arguing against the whole movement.

  6. #726
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    I posted on an earlier page what I thought would be decent solutions/my opinions on what I thought was tangibly fair.

    I've mentioned before, I am not against everyone being treated fairly, I just think fair treatment should be earned on an individual basis. I would respect a 5 year old girl if she impressed me the same as I wouldn't respect a 40 year old man if I didn't feel it was earned.

    I try to be polite to everyone and give everyone a chance. I say though, if the woman chooses not to stand her ground and fight for herself as an individual then she does not deserve the same as the man who does just so society can fill some sort of gender equality quota.

    I'm honeslty arguing in this thread because I am bored, and I am not arguing against the whole movement.
    Good, fine. Now wouldn't it be nice if everybody inherited a certain amount of respect, a basic amount, while moving around in the world, regardless of their accomplishments? I really don't think anybody is arguing for quotas, what they are arguing for is being recognized the same for the same work, the same basic humanity.

    The question from there is, how do you make that happen? How do you know when it's happened?

  7. #727
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    I did, too and I actually got put down for 'doing nothing'. You just stay home with your kids? like my days were full of leisure, Barney and doing something-close-to-nothing. It's an ugly thing to say to people and it's really just code for "you damn well better not being standing around just taking up space." This thing of women being useful in order to be allowed to stick around...but others getting to decide what is useful.
    That sucks. I'm sorry.

  8. #728
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    No, it means that historically, Group A purposefully left out Group B in the interest of political expediency, yet still feels entitled to Group Bs "solidarity" with them. It means that, on the whole, if Group B was waiting for Group A to support equality for them with the same fervency that even the most inane slights that Group A suffers, Group B would probably still be riding on the back of the bus to scrub Group A's kitchen floor.

    That's what he means.



    No, it's more like saying, "Yes, Black Lives Matter, but I think we can all agree that light-skinned, affluent and college educated black lives matter a littttlllleeee bit more than those who are poor, darker skinned and didnt manage to complete high school. So let's focus on the first group and once we get them squared away we might have time for the latter group, but that's ONLY if some politician doesn't try to MANSPLAIN something to a light skinned reporter on television first. There are, after all, only so many hours in a day..."
    Yeah, this aspect of white feminism really blows. In theory I strive for intersectionality but I'm sure there are plenty of things that I'm still blind to.

  9. #729
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    Well I mean its not like people are getting spit on in the street.

    Overall I think society is pretty accepting of all people and all
    differences, at least in a shallow way to avoid directly hurting peoples feelings.

    And again as I said in a previous post; I believe much of the reason for this so called 'wage gap' is that women and men generally go about negotiating their salaries in completely different ways. Men are more likely, on average, to try to fight for higher wages. Also, women usually take off more days from work, and therefore work fewer hours if paid on an hourly wage. I believe there were statistics earlier that were something like men negotiated for higher wages 57% of the time compared to women's 11% (numbers are estimates because I am too lazy to search the thread for the exact statistics).

    I just believe that that particular bit of information that women are paid less than men is misleading, does not account for all the variables it should, and has been passed around and promoted to such a huge degree that it has become the easy 'trump card' all feminists think that they can throw down.

  10. #730
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    Was the 3rd wave of feminism a wave goodbye to jixmixfix?

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