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  1. #711
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Equality means not seeing where one group stops and the other begins.
    ...Did that answer the question? Does that mean oppression? Is that a kind of oppression?

    If it were truly achievable, a world where we would not see where one group ends and another begins would presumably be the least oppressed world we've ever lived in.

    The problem is that on the way there, if you try to abandon those dividing lines too soon, you'll ignore the problem before it's solved. But if that happened, it would hurt women more than men, and blacks more than whites, etc.. so I'm not sure how that would fit in with what you're saying either.

    This goes back to the intercategorical and anticategorical thing.
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  2. #712
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The problem is that on the way there, if you try to abandon those dividing lines too soon, you'll ignore the problem before it's solved. But if that happened, it would hurt women more than men, and blacks more than whites, etc.. so I'm not sure how that would fit in with what you're saying either.
    Ok. Keep the dividing lines, but don't claim your movement actually speaks for anyone but those who are already behind those lines. And don't call everyone else divisive when they call you on it.
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  3. #713
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That's a good comparison.

    My own opinion is that from an etymological standpoint, feminism is kind of a poor choice of words in a couple of ways. But the topic is so trivial that whenever it is raised I assume it is a smoke screen.
    Yes. That's my opinion as well. We can call it Gramspalderbulbish if that means well stop nitpicking the name of the movement and just fucking deal with the substance of it.
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  4. #714
    Senior Member BluRoses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Equality means not seeing where one group stops and the other begins.
    I think that in an ideal world you are totally right, Xander. However, I don't think we are there yet.

    I think that our society still discriminates on the basis of all kinds of things which are really non-issues in interacting with eachother.

    I do my damnedest every day to treat everyone I run across with respect and understanding (equally) regardless of anything. The reason I see the cause of feminism as still being relevant is that it is focusing on an inconsistency that does still exist. Women are still treated unequally. I also think men should be treated with respect and understanding. Hell, I think polka dotted, hemaphroditic aliens should be!

    The point I'm trying to make is just that when everyone in the world is treated equally, I will stop calling myself a feminist. Until then, I think it is important to treat everyone equally, but also not to pretend that inequality doesn't exist.
    "ENFJ- The Diplomat Champion (will take on crusades and WILL kill every last mfr in the room!)" ~Xander

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  5. #715
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    So equality eradicates diversity. Interesting. Never heard that one before. So, are you for equality? And against recognizing diversity?
    Okay, some explanation as that is a good point.

    My thinking first goes to if you attribute your identity to a group then you are watering down the individual. It's kind of like heading off the conversation and transferring some of your decision-making and responsibility. You cannot be held solely responsible because the group you follow says this and so it's the groups responsibility whilst also divorcing yourself from the consideration upon whether that facet is right or not.

    Now I know that most people don't do this but that then makes me question why they carry the label. Perhaps, as with MBTI, it merely represents a preference. Personally I don't get it.

    In terms of "diversity", if we all belong to clubs and represent larger concerns all the time, where does the individual exist?

    Just taking feminism for a moment. What happens if you're the kind of female who wants to be a stay home mum and have a strong leadership type as her husband? Is she not a feminist? What about the notion that this is what she wants and any attempt to undermine her decision is an isn't to her right to self determine? Consider then a woman who wants to be a car mechanic but is a complete barbie doll and the stereotypical blonde? Does she fit feminism? I doubt it'd be most people's perception. So why can't these people be Sue and Abi without the attached name for something they may or may not fully support or have any opinion on? Why can't their individual name stand for their beliefs? Isn't that diversity at its core? Who ever said that diversity is reliant upon being able to define what culture you are from? Surely that'd be less diversity?

    Personally I love the people who get described as "weird". They follow their own path and their name becomes a descriptor in and of itself. Those people who you comment on with "well you know what they're like".

    Personally I champion the idea that everyone should be their own sovereign type, culture and group. Screw convention. Screw the idea that getting a whole bunch of people to shout "hell yeah" for a feeling of validity.

    A quote from desirderata
    You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars;
    you have a right to be here.
    As for those who wish to realign a label or redefine something to move with the times, on this age of labelling, can't you come up with something which doesn't carry baggage and incite people such as the OP? I know that in part it is people like him who need to be tackled but to start off with a name which will raise the defences just sounds counter productive. Either relabel or do something honest to reignite the name in the way you want it to be seen. Campaign to not exclude males from coming within fifteen feet of a changing room when their wife is trying in something new and will want your input with it having to traverse the shop floor. Speak out when you see an advert which basically slaps all men for being lazy, feckless and incompetent because it's an advert meant to target women. Stand up when you see some bloke stripped to the waist being used as gentle office porn.

    To only chip in when it concerns women, it smacks of favouritism and that only leads to more difference not less.

    I say call a female who joins the police force a policeman, if that was the tradition in that country. They've earned to right to carry the label that was in use before the allowance of women into the service and they should stand at the same height as their colleagues and not just given a box to stand on or some cushioned seat because it'd be unfair to make them stand like the men do because they're now equal.

    If a man wants to treat women differently as their default then that should be their choice which they are addressed in as an individual. No one ever formed the universal brotherhood of men so trying to tackle things as such is futile. Instead make your own mark and don't avoid the discussion. Yes it may lead to confrontation but you're not an equal unless you can compete on equal terms and that means confrontation will occur from time to time and the sisterhood won't be there so you'd best believe in yourself first and foremost.

    Btw, this is why I only made a couple of lines before. Typing on a phone is bad enough but whilst at work it's a pain to find time to do.

    My personal thanks to those who read in a little more and gave me the benefit of the doubt.
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  6. #716
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Just taking feminism for a moment. What happens if you're the kind of female who wants to be a stay home mum and have a strong leadership type as her husband? Is she not a feminist? What about the notion that this is what she wants and any attempt to undermine her decision is an isn't to her right to self determine? Consider then a woman who wants to be a car mechanic but is a complete barbie doll and the stereotypical blonde? Does she fit feminism? I doubt it'd be most people's perception. So why can't these people be Sue and Abi without the attached name for something they may or may not fully support or have any opinion on? Why can't their individual name stand for their beliefs? Isn't that diversity at its core? Who ever said that diversity is reliant upon being able to define what culture you are from? Surely that'd be less diversity?
    The apparent disdain that most feminist have for anything that is actually feminine has always been troubling to me. It's like somewhere along the way the movement bought into the idea that in order to be considered a man's equal, we had to be able to beat men at their own game. Then somehow things went a step further where not only did a woman have to be able to "out dude the dudes" to be considered empowered, but she had to look down on roles and traits that were traditionally considered feminine. If that's not the definition of misogyny, I don't know what is.

    I'm not a man. I don't want to be a man. I am a woman and therefore anything that I do is womanly, whether I am running a board room or baking cupcakes for a school bake sale. Men and women are in fact different in some respects. The point of equality should not be to deny those differences, but ascribe the same fundamental value to that which is feminine as we do that which is masculine.
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  7. #717
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    Its really interesting to see all the different perspectives.

    Xander made some really good points in his last post. One of the main issues I have always had with feminism is that feminists seem to want to broadstroke all women into one homogenous category. Having choices is absolutely wonderful, but many feminists now-a-days (or at least the ones I have met), seem to almost want to restrict themselves more instead of expanding their opportunities. I had one girl I was talking to tell me that she thought women who chose to stay at home and raise a family were bad examples to their daughters. It's things that are said like that that make me really question the current practices of feminists.

    I also think that feminists, by always talking about how they are victims, are just preparing to be victimized again. They are setting a self fufillling prophesy. It is almost like feminists are over-compensating for their own insecurities by trying to emulate stereotype of the opposite sex, instead of just accepting themselves as individuals and doing the best they can to further themselves personally.
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  8. #718
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Feminist who stayed home with my kids. Never had any other feminists tell me I sold out the cause or anything. I feel like this is a bit of a straw(wo)man.
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  9. #719
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Feminist who stayed home with my kids. Never had any other feminists tell me I sold out the cause or anything. I feel like this is a bit of a straw(wo)man.
    Not going to lie, the debate I was having with her did get a bit heated and she got understandably defensive.

    I have no problem with what feminism was supposed to be at its onset, I just really do not think that feminists (especially radical feminists, are going about it in the most effective way. Especially on social media, I have seen images, quotes, news stories, that almost seem to throw the most radical aspects of feminism in my face. It seems to me, what feminists don't realize, is that those occurances of women being ridiculously mistreated are not necessarily the exception, but certainly are not the rule.

    If feminists want to gain more consistant support and serious respect they should try to appeal to the masses, explain both sides of the argument (obviously stressing and supporting their own stance), and avoid villifying anyone.
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  10. #720
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Feminist who stayed home with my kids. Never had any other feminists tell me I sold out the cause or anything. I feel like this is a bit of a straw(wo)man.
    I have crazy respect for women who can do this! I really don't think I'll have the capacity for it.
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