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  1. #631
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Interesting:
    The obvious question is: What in our society compels men to be so much more willing to attempt negotiating a better salary than women? And the moment you attempt to start answering that question, you should find your self inundated with answers that would be comfortable amongst any circle of feminists.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #632
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    But to me, the ultimate achieve would actually be sheer indifference. That is, indifference about gender. I don't want there to be an expectation automatically placed on someone that would not be placed on someone else of another gender.
    I try to start with my own habits and attitudes. Of course, in some settings, where people don't want to take it that far, that can get me in trouble. Still, blaming women or feminism for that would be a mistake.

    I just blame lazy thinking.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore


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  3. #633
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Since Le Guin's work came up, I'm going to throw a really sci-fi idea out here. Some day, we may simply stop gestating children at all. It could be an external, artificial process. Sex and reproduction could be 100% separated and biological sex would cease to have even a basic function. From there you could do whatever you want with it, which could include eliminating it. But even if you took no steps to remove biological sex, I suspect it would be eventually become fairly meaningless as a result.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The obvious question is: What in our society compels men to be so much more willing to attempt negotiating a better salary than women? And the moment you attempt to start answering that question, you should find your self inundated with answers that would be comfortable amongst any circle of feminists.
    You mean paying women more for the same work? because that is what it's going to take to even out the wage gap.

  5. #635
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    Well certainly not a dig at the feelers, but dont on average more women (60%ish) tend to be feelers as opposed to (40%ish) of men? So starting with a natural inclination to be more harmony seeking and cooperative, and then further molded by society into adapting towards collaborative and docile behavior, of course women are going to be less likely to negotiate. But that still doesnt mean that just because women got arguably mistreated by society as a whole, that they just deserve to have things handed to them.

    If a kid is abused by his parents at a young age does society owe him something? Are his future actions defined by his past? Partly, for sure, but at the end of the day he is what he makes of himself. People are going to offer you the lowest amount that they think they can get away with, if you argue and at the end of the day you did the best you can do, then you can complain. If you dont put in the effort, then you cannot complain about those who did. Society owes no one anything they did not earn.
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  6. #636
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    Well certainly not a dig at the feelers, but dont on average more women (60%ish) tend to be feelers as opposed to (40%ish) of men? So starting with a natural inclination to be more harmony seeking and cooperative, and then further molded by society into adapting towards collaborative and docile behavior, of course women are going to be less likely to negotiate.
    Supposing that's true, and supposing that's an accurate interpretation of what it means to be a feeler (you might need to be on this forum longer to see just how little a Feeler can give a shit about harmony ) We'd still need to figure out what more women are Feelers. Does it have a cultural root?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    But that still doesnt mean that just because women got arguably mistreated by society as a whole, that they just deserve to have things handed to them.
    There's an entire concept known as restorative justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty6226 View Post
    If a kid is abused by his parents at a young age does society owe him something? Are his future actions defined by his past? Partly, for sure, but at the end of the day he is what he makes of himself. People are going to offer you the lowest amount that they think they can get away with, if you argue and at the end of the day you did the best you can do, then you can complain. If you dont put in the effort, then you cannot complain about those who did. Society owes no one anything they did not earn.
    I don't think of these things in terms of who owes who. I'm thinking of these things in terms of what would be a better society.

    Also, I actually don't think that's quite a correct account of how psychology and individual choices and so forth work. There really isn't a ghost in the machine, and you don't make your choices in isolation. Reducing problems that manifest themselves broadly across society to individual choices doesn't pan out. That is, if women get certain results because they make certain individual choices, and this happens statistically more often, then something, like the way they are being raised, is causing them to have that propensity to make those choices, and if society is basically systematically raising women to make those kinds of choices, it's a social problem then, isn't it?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    How would they treat rape prosecution?
    ...The same for men and women? Is that going to be the answer to all of these questions? Because on both of these, that in and of itself really should be a satisfactory response.
    So would a society that equally ignored rape without proof regardless of the victim's gender be an equal one? Regardless of which gender rapes which gender, you still have a reality of a case with someone's word vs. someone's word, and if the actions are taken more often by one gender then how we deal with that is going to effect one gender more then the other.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What would be their divorce laws be like?

    Exactly the same for men and women? Really, that one is easy. Any difference is obvious and artificial and can be removed.
    So a society that simply calculated alimony according to pay difference or a society that didn't allow for alimony at all?
    A society that started with equal parenting & shared custody as the assumed default and ignored NOW's reservations?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What would they do about domestic violence?

    I'm not sure I even understand these questions. You define domestic violence. You devise investigative means for determining when it is present. You come up with legal sentencing for domestic violence. You apply a legal conviction to people who appear to have committed domestic violence according to the investigation. If there's a difference in how any of that's done right now based on the gender of anyone involved, there shouldn't be. What is the issue with that?
    So should men be able to prosecute women for slapping them? Should police profiling of husbands as immediate suspects be eliminated, despite the reality that it's often proves to be true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What would be their policy about free speech in the private sector?
    Free speech? Is this supposed to be getting at sexual harassment laws? Or hate speech? The answer is pretty much the same as above.
    So a general "whatever it is it should be equal to both genders" without anything about what "it" should be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What would their work place be like?
    Full of men and women doing pretty much the same things with equal frequency?
    Should this be achieved by quotas and incentives or do we determine that those in themselves are unfair treatment and that we should we just let people decide what they want to do and let cultural expectations fade on their own time? Should we provide wage negotiation seminars for women? For both genders? Should we enforce it from the top and remove personal negotiation from the table? Should their be laws against gender-discrimination in research grants & scholarships?

  8. #638

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadOctopus View Post
    This may be the most counter-productive conversation I've ever had.
    It's kind of a wonder to me that you've bothered responding to something so persistently ridiculous.
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  9. #639
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Supposing that's true, and supposing that's an accurate interpretation of what it means to be a feeler (you might need to be on this forum longer to see just how little a Feeler can give a shit about harmony ) We'd still need to figure out what more women are Feelers. Does it have a cultural root?



    There's an entire concept known as restorative justice.



    I don't think of these things in terms of who owes who. I'm thinking of these things in terms of what would be a better society.

    Also, I actually don't think that's quite a correct account of how psychology and individual choices and so forth work. There really isn't a ghost in the machine, and you don't make your choices in isolation. Reducing problems that manifest themselves broadly across society to individual choices doesn't pan out. That is, if women get certain results because they make certain individual choices, and this happens statistically more often, then something, like the way they are being raised, is causing them to have that propensity to make those choices, and if society is basically systematically raising women to make those kinds of choices, it's a social problem then, isn't it?
    I agree that obviously the way society shapes women is inherently different than the way that it shapes men. Women are generally expected to be more docile, and are shown througout their lives examples of being compliant, teachers, parents(mothers, aunts, grandmothers), friends ect.

    But, just because something has been modeled for you does not mean you have to automatically accept it. Free will makes it so that if I wanted to, I could be an astronaut, a truck driver, a doctor, or just a housewife. Of course it is harder to go against the grain, and many may not even realize that they can, but honestly I do not understand how women are expected to move foreward if they are not willing to make the tough choices.

    Not everyone gets the same opportunities, but you play the hand you are dealt, hope your hand is better than your opponents, collect/lose money and move onto the next hand getting better and better until you can win nearly every time.

  10. #640
    Senior Member Frosty's Avatar
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