User Tag List

Page 48 of 162 FirstFirst ... 3846474849505898148 ... LastLast
Results 471 to 480 of 1614

Thread: 3rd wave feminism

  1. #471
    Strongly Ambivalent Array Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,193

    Default

    I agree that it wasn't primarily a codification of patriarchy/sexism but in part, that was exactly what it was, wasn't it? In that it applied only to men, and classified women among the weak. I still think there's a place for a modified form of chivalry in modern society, but if it were practiced exactly as it was historically, it would absolutely be totes sexist.

  2. #472
    Super Ape Array Luke O's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    954
    Posts
    1,703

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Skinny-Love View Post
    Does your wife still find you sexually attractive? If I had to argue with my husband over who puts up shelves, not only would I put up the shelves myself, properly anchored and perfectly aligned, I'd happily file for divorce the next day. To each his own and more importantly, enjoy the shelves while you can because what's yours is mine.
    I think I may have given the wrong impression with "argue", yes we both want to do it, but we do decide amicably. She thinks I wouldn't do it the most efficient way (one of the pitfalls of living with a possible ISTJ) but I like doing things around our house. Besides, shelves are such a petty thing to fall out over.

    And yes, as far as I know, she still finds me attractive. Been together since 2003.

  3. #473
    Senior Member Array Lark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    19,228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I think what turns some people off about chivalry is the automatic classification of women into the category of "weaker" as in the third commandment of chivalry I quoted above:

    "Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them (Respect and defend all weaknesses)."

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeing a woman struggling with a heavy load and stepping in with an offer to help, IF she would appreciate the help, AND you would do the same for anyone, male or female, old or young, struggling with that heavy load. There is something wrong (IMO) with the mindset that women should never have to lift anything because they're weaker so any time you see a woman lifting something you swoop in and take it. And both men and women have perpetuated that notion, as @Xander pointed out upthread with women in his workplace calling on "strapping lads" to lift shit they could probably lift themselves.
    Yeah, I've seen men routinely expected to jeopardise themselves in my line of work, in police work and other sorts of work, it is perpetuated by both men and women and there's been some good sociological studies of the disposability of males as a result, however, I tend to think that males are more than adequately compensated for a lot of it, there are many more deadbeat and abscent fathers than there are deadbeat and abscent mothers.

    In a great many cases of maternal deprivation or emotional abuse and neglect, as it is more often called, the cruelty visited upon the children by the lousy female parent is usually because they are remaining parent, the father either isnt resident at all or may as well not be present or available even if they are resident, the role of carer just automatically seems to attach itself to the female.

    That's slightly of the topic of chivalry though, there are species of feminism which believe in women rising to equality, it being something which can not be given or delivered though a change in hearts and minds. Its called Amazon Feminism but probably has more to do with weight lifting, crossfit and those sorts of cultures than the women who are taller, stronger and identified as "amazons" by modeling agencies.

    This points up what I was saying about waves or ideologies, I think feminism is a diverse, disparite collection of ideologies, all labelled similarly, sometimes mistakenly believed to "all mean the same thing". There is probably superficial and serious differences for instance between liberal or legislative feminism and radicals or amazons for instance, there's even differences between amazons and radicals though.

  4. #474
    Senior Member Array Lark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    19,228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I agree that it wasn't primarily a codification of patriarchy/sexism but in part, that was exactly what it was, wasn't it? In that it applied only to men, and classified women among the weak. I still think there's a place for a modified form of chivalry in modern society, but if it were practiced exactly as it was historically, it would absolutely be totes sexist.
    Chivalry as it was historically could tame males for a matriarchal order, at least that is what I would consider to be the case given some of my understanding of that term, which isnt necessarily negative, is different from a martrilineal order (which has existed from time to time in world history) and based a little upon literary sources such as Herland.

    All that chivalry does is assume or suggest that women are weaker, fairer etc. etc. Most of the time because that was objectively the case, at least in the respects chivalry referred to the most, propensity for violence, strength of the sword arm etc. Still less does it suggest that women should be kept weaker or should be weaker or have a place.

    I do think that certainly a resurrected chivalry has its place, I think there should be codes of ethics and love the idea of an honourific society, I also think that codes of male and female ethics have their place too and that essential difference does not conflict with equality or emancipation either, I would agree with some of the radicals in that respect too.

  5. #475
    Strongly Ambivalent Array Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This points up what I was saying about waves or ideologies, I think feminism is a diverse, disparite collection of ideologies, all labelled similarly, sometimes mistakenly believed to "all mean the same thing". There is probably superficial and serious differences for instance between liberal or legislative feminism and radicals or amazons for instance, there's even differences between amazons and radicals though.
    Yeah, which is why I think trying to deem an organization the authority on who can be classified a feminist (a la @Jarlaxle's question upthread) is misguided. There are so many different "strains" of feminism, for lack of a better term, and people align with them to various degrees. For example, I have serious reservations about how mainstream white lady feminism dominates the landscape and is clueless about issues of race and can sometimes push people of color away from the table, but still definitely self-identify as a feminist. And I've never even heard of amazon feminists.

  6. #476
    Tempbanned Array
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    4,182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I agree that it wasn't primarily a codification of patriarchy/sexism but in part, that was exactly what it was, wasn't it? In that it applied only to men, and classified women among the weak. I still think there's a place for a modified form of chivalry in modern society, but if it were practiced exactly as it was historically, it would absolutely be totes sexist.
    In reality feminism has destroyed chivalry but feminists hate that because they don't want actually want equality they want entitlment.

  7. #477
    Super Ape Array Luke O's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    954
    Posts
    1,703

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Stupid you just contradicted yourself you say if she's 4 11 its OK to be chivalrous but women as a whole are physically inferior to men which is part of the reason why men are chivalrous.Women on average are also shorter than men.
    No I didn't. It comes down to common sense to help out a short person. Yes, I already know women are on average shorter, but would you tell Warwick Davies to go change his own lightbulb, because of his superior manliness, or would you use common sense to see if you could help?

    By the way, Warwick Davies probably has no shortage of stepladders, but that's beside the point. Able-bodied female, lightbulb gone, she has the means to reach it. She doesn't need anyone to step in like some sort of hero to do it for her. And what if she let a man do it? Would she swoon over him? Would she warm to him? Let him fuck her triumphantly over the coffee table?

    Extremely rare.

  8. #478

    Default

    Proposition: Instead of trying to correct a blind man's false descriptions of the world, we ignore them as the hallucinations they are. We derive far too much entertainment from staring foolishness in the face.
    Likes Hard liked this post

  9. #479
    Senior Member Array Lark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    19,228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Yeah, which is why I think trying to deem an organization the authority on who can be classified a feminist (a la @Jarlaxle's question upthread) is misguided. There are so many different "strains" of feminism, for lack of a better term, and people align with them to various degrees. For example, I have serious reservations about how mainstream white lady feminism dominates the landscape and is clueless about issues of race and can sometimes push people of color away from the table, but still definitely self-identify as a feminist. And I've never even heard of amazon feminists.
    Last time I seriously read up on it there were 26 varieties of feminism, dont ask me what they all were because I dont remember them all, by any stretch of the imagination.

    The thing is that as a concept it has become so varigated, which is fine, probably a good thing in some ways, that virtually anyone could claim to be a feminist. There's something for everyone in it. Anyone claiming not to be a feminist, for instance I think Kaley Coco Sweeting was one recently, needs to clarify why and what they understand by the term.

    I've studied it in depth in the past, I'm interested in some of what it has to say and dont think some of the rest of what it has to say is that relevent to me or possesses much worth but I could say the same for most things really. One thing I would say is that some of the best criticisms I've read of feminism and woman's liberation are by women themselves or feminists of a different hue or description.

    Anti-feminism I dont like, its often always bogus, its more indebted to feminism than it knows, it needs feminism more than the average female or male, it often even recycles the concepts and thinking of feminists to try and use against feminists and often its unconscious or unawares about it too.

  10. #480
    Senior Member Array Lark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    19,228

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    In reality feminism has destroyed chivalry but feminists hate that because they don't want actually want equality they want entitlment.
    Yeah, it was probably modernism which destroyed chivalry, how do you square the idea that feminism had anything to do with it when feminism didnt exist until a long, long, long time afterwards? I've not read any feminists stating entitlement as an objective, were did you read that?

Similar Threads

  1. A new INFJ *waves!*
    By moonlit_reveries in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 05-30-2008, 01:14 AM
  2. Feminism
    By GZA in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 131
    Last Post: 02-29-2008, 07:31 PM
  3. The Ocean Waves: a NF introduction
    By music_educe in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-16-2007, 08:00 PM
  4. *waving*
    By Sandy in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 10-22-2007, 08:29 PM
  5. Hello :D *waves*
    By Indranizia in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 05-12-2007, 04:40 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •