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Thread: 3rd wave feminism

  1. #291
    HopelessSituationWarrior Array Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I respect your desire to search for the truth and to listen to all sides. I absolutely support freedom of speech and I do believe in the value of dissenting opinions. I think most of the posters in this thread that oppose the attitude of the OP (and following arguments) would agree with that. I realize that as a Ti dom you prefer to give equal weight and attention to each view and consider them all, but for most people this is not possible nor desirable. Freedom of speech doesn't not mean I am required to listen. In fact, in some cases I think carefully considering the views behind a toxic belief system to be extremely dangerous. Should we be open to the views and ideology of neo-nazis or ISIS?
    The issue with those folks is that they have an ironclad ideological system that has a way to dismiss any contrary evidence. I agree that such people can usually not be reasoned with, but I think that it is better to publicy prove them wrong, and expose them as the deluded fools they are. I'm also ok with more blatant mockery in such instances, as well. Either methods are likely to make people on the fence less inclined to follow them, which can only be a good thing.

    I support hate crime laws, but I do not support hate speech laws. I am against laws against curbing free speech except for where incitement to violence occurs. The reason is not because I sympathize with such people, but because I believe hate speech is an ineffectual method for stopping it.

    The U.S. does not have hate speech laws, but Europe does, and guess which has a much bigger problem with neofascism? I take that as evidence that hate speech laws do not work. There are always ways to circumvent such laws and use coded or subtle language to make your point. Hate speech does not eliminate such people, it merely makes them harder to spot, which makes them more dangerous.

    I think speech codes and hate speech laws also have a potential to be used in an incredibly regressive way.The people who hold positions of authority are still often white men, and they are the ones making the judgement calls on what constitutes hate speech, which is something that should give us pause. Very often, I think such restrictions on speech make topics like racism and sexism harder to talk about, and tend to result in such discussion not occurring at all.



    If we must consider all possibilities equally we must accept that maybe they actually have things right and we are all failing to grasp the 'truth' of the matter. Extreme examples I know, but I only mean to demonstrate that being open to ideas and offering the benefit of the doubt is not always right (or of value). I can't offer my empathy for a toxic ideology - I can't let that negative, hateful, twisted discourse into my heart without judgement.

    This is not a problem as along as someone can accurately distinguish between opinions that are toxic, and opinions that are not.

    I think this is the case with you, but some people are not so good at this, and so are quick to jump on a bandwagon. I suppose I am thinking of INTPs with weak Fe. Perhaps I am describing what INTPs should do. INTPs should be open-minded and investigate all sides, and not blindly trust our feelings, because our compasses are often out of whack. We're often so desperate for peer approval that we'll go along with anything. INTPs need to work to overcome that impulse.
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  2. #292
    Member Array Ferrus's Avatar
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    Do you think there should be laws to make it illegal to write publications that deny the holocaust, out of interest?

  3. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrus View Post
    Do you think there should be laws to make it illegal to write publications that deny the holocaust, out of interest?
    No, I do not. In fact, I have expressed such an opinion multiple times on INTPc, and I have expressed other idiosyncratic opinions on the Middle East multiple times on INTPC, and I find it curious that so many people are ignoring them and are interpreting me as holding some other kind of position on matters, particularly with regards to the Middle East.

    But, maybe that's just paranoia.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
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  4. #294
    Senior Member Array ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrus View Post
    Do you think there should be laws to make it illegal to write publications that deny the holocaust, out of interest?
    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    This is not a problem as along as someone can accurately distinguish between opinions that are toxic, and opinions that are not.
    This is the crux of the matter with something like denial of the Shoah in publications. I want to keep free speech and freedom of the press and there is already plenty of public denial and has been since the end of WWII. I think there is an overwhelming amount of proof that it did happen and education of that generation and future generations is assured. Unfortunately, not every topic is so broadly covered.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    Unfortunately, not every topic is so broadly covered.
    Those topics should be broadly covered, then. I'm not sure what's the right way to cover those topics more broadly, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of silencing other views. Why should anyone be afraid of a stupid idea that can be easily disproven?

    Edit: Also, I see the INTPc folks glancing at this below.


    For their benefit, I shall share this spoiler alert: I wasn't the Ellsworth Toohey on INTPc. I suspect that person might look more like a bear. Yes, I have outspoken left-wing views, but I dislike that kind of thing as well. I would say that the space program, for instance, should be praised rather than denigrated.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.

  6. #296
    Senior Member Array ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Those topics should be broadly covered, then. I'm not sure what's the right way to cover those topics more broadly, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea of silencing other views. Why should anyone be afraid of a stupid idea that can be easily disproven?
    I completely agree with you. Even if I hate what you say and what you stand for - knock yourself out. You have a right to say it and I have a right to tell you that what you say sucks. I wish I had a good idea about how to cover things more broadly, but I don't.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  7. #297
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    Let me make this more simple for your brain to comprehend.


    Quote Originally Posted by star tripper View Post
    1) Girls Only Day is a celebration of females in science. Women were told for years they could not go into that field, so now that they can, they celebrate it. It's like a super small scale black history month.
    Can you please explain me in these modern times how "women were told for years that could not get into that field" I want to know who is stopping women or telling women today that they can not pursue a career in math and science. Can you name an organization or a person that does this? this is complete bullshit. If such a thing did exist today they would be shot down by feminists/society in a blink of an eye.


    Quote Originally Posted by star tripper View Post
    2) Why on earth do you think it shelters women? There are so many implications in that claim and most of them based in misogyny, but I'll wait for your explanation.
    It shelters women because it's completely unrealistic to work in a job without the presence of men, would you like it if your school gave you special privileges because you had a penis or a vagina? by having a girls only day it says more about society's hatred of men than it does about giving women equal opportunity. In this case however it's not even men it's boys it's sickening I don't know how anyone in their right mind finds this as an acceptable solution to get more girls into math and science.

    Quote Originally Posted by star tripper View Post
    Not only is that what I said, but this is the dictionary definition of feminism.
    Excluding men from activities is not the dictionary definition of feminism.

    Quote Originally Posted by star tripper View Post
    1) Child support is not for the female or because of feminist laws; it's because they made the child TOGETHER so they are BOTH responsible for the child.
    2) Feminism is in fact making women less reliant on males for financial support.
    3) There is no way the majority of men are saying no thanks to marriage entirely because of possible alimony in the future. You'd have to provide evidence for that.
    You have to understand that it's not one law that's fucking over men after divorce but it's a number of laws. I do think a man should be paying for child support 100% but how is he suppose to do that when the court takes away half his assets and also expects him to pay alimony to the women on top of that? He's basically robbed of all his money. Yes men are catching onto this bullshit and are avoiding marriage all together the marriage rate has reached an all time low in 2015.


    Quote Originally Posted by star tripper View Post
    I'd agree that one gender isn't smarter than the other gender entirely based on grades. I don't even think women are inherently smarter than men nor that Obama had a serious bone in his body when he said that. I just found it funny that higher grades and intelligence are perhaps the two most correlated things mentioned in this thread yet you drew correlations between everything else but that.
    I would also like to believe that it was a joke and I would've taken it as such but that whole Obama speech was reinforcing the feminist ideology.

  8. #298
    Senior Member Array Lark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Great, now they know that we know about the feminist conspiracy. You leave me no choice but to report you to the grand patriarchy authorities.
    They are subletting an office with ISIS these days so you know get the address right and stuff.
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  9. #299
    Senior Member Array Lark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    This is the crux of the matter with something like denial of the Shoah in publications. I want to keep free speech and freedom of the press and there is already plenty of public denial and has been since the end of WWII. I think there is an overwhelming amount of proof that it did happen and education of that generation and future generations is assured. Unfortunately, not every topic is so broadly covered.
    Why did the change the name from holocaust to shoah?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think that whole win/lose, dominant/submissive way of looking at relationships is immature, there is no need to be naive but in the main the courts are not liable to reward frivolous or trivializing litigation and there isnt any feminist conspiracy, also what sort or resources do any of you who are talking about prenups possess that you imagine its going to all end in a grand game of dividing the estate?

    It all seems pretty ridiculous and far removed from any practical experience I suspect anyone posting in this thread has actually had or is likely to actually have either.
    Wow, Lark, you and I agree on something! Successful marriages tend to be the ones not based on adversarial relationships. I've been with my husband for over twenty years now (SHOCK! Imagine that, a feminist in a satisfying long-term marriage- with a MAN! I stayed home with my kids when they were little, too, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it, anti-feminists) and I credit that longevity to neither of us undermining the other with assumptions that they'll try to screw us over someday so we better take care of #1.
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