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  1. #281
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Absolutely - yes you should. If you aren't open to try to understanding them, then claiming they are "toxic belief systems" isn't going to be based on anything that they inherently are as belief systems in the first place, the only place villains exist is in the little stories we tell ourselves, and in fact if you cared to understand them you'd find that this is exactly how the two examples you gave persist in the first place - by telling themselves about villains on the other side without stopping to try to understand them, which is exactly why they are wrong, and if they happened to not be wrong, then the other side just really might be. Understanding a point of view is not the same as as accepting it as truth, just understanding why they think it is.
    LOL, don't teach your granny to suck eggs. I am a INFP - seeing the other point of view is all I friggin do. There are limits, though...

    What I want to ask you is, do you need to a thorough examination of the ideology and arguments of ISIS to judge whether they're screwed up or not? If you can decide without doing so then you are imposing a pre-existing belief system on it for the sake of a more expedient judgement. This is the real world; sometimes that needs to happen.

    I believe women and men should be equal. I also believe that those that disagree with that (or ignorantly believe they already are equal) are not worth my time and efforts. I don't think that's being judgey - it's just being efficient and realistic. When I first opened this thread I thought the argument would be idiotic, bitter and prejudiced, and that such posters would never be convinced otherwise, no matter how rational or well argued the opposition was. @Magic Poriferan, bless him, really tried to reason with them but ultimately proved my supposition for me. Despite his marvellous efforts, no anti-feminists were persuaded to even entertain the thought that he might be right. It's all a big waste of time, just as I expected it to be.

    And honestly, I think people fail to see these things in the wider context: anti-feminists are on the wrong side of history, just like those opposed to the abolishment of slavery, the anti-segregation crowd, anti-semites and homophobics. I think it's pretty hard to argue that 100 years from now that people won't look back at these sorts of attitudes as being backward and incomprehensible.

    Obviously, we don't all have the time to get into every side of every debate in the world, but if you are going to take a stance in a conflict, it's better off as an informed one.
    I'm not against being informed - I never said I was. I prefer far more objective information than I'm being offered.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    A different economy, which does not depend on maximized labor, or force households to have two sources of income just to make ends meet.
    This can help with the poverty factors, but not with the psychological factors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    With that, we also need completely flexibility about which role men and women take, so that the decisions on how much time a given parent spends doing salaried work or staying at home has nothing to do with what sex they are.
    Even with the option of healthy co-parenting and even stay at home dad's, you are still reliant on a couple to stay together for the sake of their kids in a society that doesn't have the economical pressure to do so, more so then now if the above economical changes take place. What I am looking for is a 3rd household option, something that doesn't depend on romantic love.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I don't buy the arguments people have made about the workforce suffering as a result of women leaving it, either, at least not in the current economic climate where unemployment is still high and there is intense competition for jobs.


    If you have to pick the best potential employee out of 10 options vs. picking the best potential employee out of 5 options, your chance of finding the best person for the job are half of what they were before. Right now you can see this best with countries that are trying to leverage oil supplies to create a skilled working force and struggle to do so, in part because they don't give an equal chance for half of the potential talents. Even in the extreme case of jobs that favor a skill that is more common with one gender then another, for instance a job that is built more so on spacial awareness or linguistic abilities, you are still loosing 33% of your potential best candidates.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rambling View Post
    Ursula Le Guin wrote a novel entitled The Left Hand of Darkness...which postulates a completely different approach...

    In the world she invented, everyone was asexual until the moment desire was kindles, at which point one (randomly) became male, the other female ... If the female then became pregnant, they dropped out of work for long enough to care for the young infant ...as a result of this random possibility of interruption to one's working life at any moment, all benefits and privileges were very evenly divided among the populace.

    Of course, the actual *story* is about what happens when a permanently male human arrives in this world... It's a thought provoking read about what makes humans human, and what sexuality is about.
    Finally! Something interesting! But how would you apply this? Hormone treatments to fetuses?
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  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    LOL, don't teach your granny to suck eggs. I am a INFP - seeing the other point of view is all I friggin do. There are limits, though...

    What I want to ask you is, do you need to a thorough examination of the ideology and arguments of ISIS to judge whether they're screwed up or not? If you can decide without doing so then you are imposing a pre-existing belief system on it for the sake of a more expedient judgement. This is the real world; sometimes that needs to happen.
    Are you in the battlefield right now logging into typoC from the trenches with 5 seconds to make a judgement call about ISIS? What is the pressure to make a judgement call in the first place? So much so that you don't have time to hear why they do what they do?

  4. #284
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    Are you in the battlefield right now logging into typoC from the trenches with 5 seconds to make a judgement call about ISIS? What is the pressure to make a judgement call in the first place? So much so that you don't have time to hear why they do what they do?
    Unfortunately, what they say about why they are engaged in war is rather useless information. The real reason why they are has very little to do with any of their ideology. They're a disillusioned, alienated, disaffected youth looking for purpose (and to rebel against authority), possibly having suffered marginalization through years of racism, and have been persuaded by savvy, well-targeted propoganda about idealistic goals. Listening to ISIS members speak will tell you none of that because they'd never admit to it - objective fact finding, psychological insight and deduction will.

    This analogy is becoming more appropriate and revealing with every moment...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #285

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    There's a middle ground here: taking on the odds, but stacking your deck to give yourself the best chance of success. A real man picks his battles - there is a difference between courage and stupidity.

    Prenups, for example, should be a given. It is not true that they are always thrown out by a court, at least in NZ and the UK. If my hypothetical bride-to-be isn't mature enough to sign one, then I would consider calling off the engagement.
    I think that whole win/lose, dominant/submissive way of looking at relationships is immature, there is no need to be naive but in the main the courts are not liable to reward frivolous or trivializing litigation and there isnt any feminist conspiracy, also what sort or resources do any of you who are talking about prenups possess that you imagine its going to all end in a grand game of dividing the estate?

    It all seems pretty ridiculous and far removed from any practical experience I suspect anyone posting in this thread has actually had or is likely to actually have either.
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  6. #286

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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Are you kidding? We're actually meant to take this shit seriously and engage in it? After my sex has been repeatedly insulted, after I've been dictated what my 'true' nature and beliefs are and been falsely accused of multiple, idiotic 'crimes against society', I'm meant to show respect and understanding to that person and their arguments? Fuck that. I'm sick of this expectation that we should be fair and balanced with every idea or rhetoric no matter how stupid, backwards and offensive it is.

    And you know what, I can actually accept some of the few vaguely sensible points that have been made. I do agree that, to an extent, there are some inherent gender differences and variations in preferences and inclinations between men and women. I do agree that women shouldn't be shamed for wanting to be stay at home mothers. I do agree that men should have equal rights to child custody. But the sensible stuff is all buried in so much irrational ranting, distortion, strawmen arguments, obtuse beliefs, and outright sexism that, strangely, I don't feel any desire to wade through it all to extend my good will. After I've been repeatedly instructed that, "feminists believe x and y", when I am a feminist and expressly do not believe x or y, my patience is already worn pretty thin. I mean, I'm being accused of secretly believing something I do not. The whole idea of having to defend myself against that (and prove it to be false) is so fucking ridiculous and infuriating.

    This whole thread is based on a troll-erific premise - productive discussion was never going to happen. Are you really surprised people are just resorting to poking the zoo animals?
    Or pointlessly emote, whatever floats your boat, its your dime.

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    there isnt any feminist conspiracy

    Great, now they know that we know about the feminist conspiracy. You leave me no choice but to report you to the grand patriarchy authorities.
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  8. #288
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarlaxle View Post
    This can help with the poverty factors, but not with the psychological factors.



    Even with the option of healthy co-parenting and even stay at home dad's, you are still reliant on a couple to stay together for the sake of their kids in a society that doesn't have the economical pressure to do so, more so then now if the above economical changes take place. What I am looking for is a 3rd household option, something that doesn't depend on romantic love.
    Does there have to be economic pressure for a couple with children to stay together? It seems obvious that much of the reason people would want to do so is economic. And then there's that old cliché about financial strains are the main cause of people divorcing.

    I think as far as the economy is concerned it might only matter that there are no economic factors in favor of separating.
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  9. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Does there have to be economic pressure for a couple with children to stay together?
    Isn't that the whole idea behind the complaint made in this thread? Feminist made women financially independent + The courts made it viable for them to keep supporting their children without staying married -> Women don't have to stay married to support themselves -> Divorce rates go up.

    Essentially that we removed much of the economical pressure to stay together and now that it depends a lot less on that and a lot more on love, it doesn't seem to be a common success.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    And then there's that old cliché about financial strains are the main cause of people divorcing.

    I think as far as the economy is concerned it might only matter that there are no economic factors in favor of separating.
    What economical factors do you think exist in favor of separating?
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  10. #290
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    BTW whatever's going on in your life that your marriage has failed and you've gotten into a dispute with your wife about the children could be to do with you having a screw loose and being a douche rather than a grand feminist conspiracy.

    I'd say think about that rather than go and look for validation for the conspiracy but you know.
    Now replace 'feminist' with 'gay' and you get an approximation of what people think about your tirades.

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