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  1. #271
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    Beauty and brains.

  2. #272
    Member star tripper's Avatar
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    Let me make this more simple for your brain to comprehend.

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    I said women shouldn't go into a role of math or science if they are spoon fed and given extra sexist benefits like that "girls only day" because it will shelter them and force feed them in a competitive market.Obviously if you lack the proper education for a job you don't deserve that role. Would you want a surgeon to operate on you that had no proper education? feminists do apparently.
    1) Girls Only Day is a celebration of females in science. Women were told for years they could not go into that field, so now that they can, they celebrate it. It's like a super small scale black history month.
    2) Why on earth do you think it shelters women? There are so many implications in that claim and most of them based in misogyny, but I'll wait for your explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    I said women shouldn't get getting 90% of the child custody over men, the custody should be split even or least balanced according to the person's mental health and status etc not their gender.
    Not only is that what I said, but this is the dictionary definition of feminism.

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    Men aren't getting married because of feminists laws. A man's assets get stripped 50% while he is expected to pay alimony and child support. He is basically left with 25% of what he originally had after a divorce.
    1) Child support is not for the female or because of feminist laws; it's because they made the child TOGETHER so they are BOTH responsible for the child.
    2) Feminism is in fact making women less reliant on males for financial support.
    3) There is no way the majority of men are saying no thanks to marriage entirely because of possible alimony in the future. You'd have to provide evidence for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    To say gender is smarter than another gender simply because they get better grades in school is a fallacy and outright retarded. Surprised you didn't get this one. The video I posted from Dr. Robert Sapolsky explains a lot of this.
    I'd agree that one gender isn't smarter than the other gender entirely based on grades. I don't even think women are inherently smarter than men nor that Obama had a serious bone in his body when he said that. I just found it funny that higher grades and intelligence are perhaps the two most correlated things mentioned in this thread yet you drew correlations between everything else but that.

  3. #273
    The Senate Osprey's Avatar
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    One thing that is non-negotiable for me is the concept of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. These things tend to be pushed by unsavory, totalitarian ideologies like fascism or communism. It makes society dumber and retards social progress, in addition to making harder for obstinate truth-seekers like myself. If you have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending anyone, speech becomes incredibly difficult. Yet, it is ideas regarding social change that are precisely the most likely to offend. Allowing the spread of only inoffensive ideas supports the status quo. I do not understand why more people do not see that.

    Any form of thinking that opposes these concepts, whether associated with the right or the left, is anathema to me. This is also often packaged with hostility to art, science and open dialogue, and I find hostility to such things I find to be highly suspect. Admittedly such suspicion is undoubtedly due to my personal biases.

    I support feminism as long as someone's feminism does not reject freedom of speech and freedom of expression.
    Forget the dead you've left; they will not follow you.
    The vagabond who is rapping at your door, is standing in the clothes you once wore.
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  4. #274
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    oh wow... what the fuck, everybody?


    I suppose that the MRA people would say that I'm a bad woman... fortunately, the man likes his women bad

    (on another note, our relationship is one of choice, not necessity... I love him all the more because I don't need him and he doesn't need me)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  5. #275
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    One thing that is non-negotiable for me is the concept of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. These things tend to be pushed by unsavory, totalitarian ideologies like fascism or communism. It makes society dumber and retards social progress, in addition to making harder for obstinate truth-seekers like myself. If you have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending anyone, speech becomes incredibly difficult. Yet, it is ideas regarding social change that are precisely the most likely to offend. Allowing the spread of only inoffensive ideas supports the status quo. I do not understand why more people do not see that.

    Any form of thinking that opposes these concepts, whether associated with the right or the left, is anathema to me. This is also often packaged with hostility to art, science and open dialogue, and I find hostility to such things I find to be highly suspect. Admittedly such suspicion is undoubtedly due to my personal biases.

    I support feminism as long as someone's feminism does not reject freedom of speech and freedom of expression.
    I respect your desire to search for the truth and to listen to all sides. I absolutely support freedom of speech and I do believe in the value of dissenting opinions. I think most of the posters in this thread that oppose the attitude of the OP (and following arguments) would agree with that. I realize that as a Ti dom you prefer to give equal weight and attention to each view and consider them all, but for most people this is not possible nor desirable. Freedom of speech doesn't not mean I am required to listen. In fact, in some cases I think carefully considering the views behind a toxic belief system to be extremely dangerous. Should we be open to the views and ideology of neo-nazis or ISIS? If we must consider all possibilities equally we must accept that maybe they actually have things right and we are all failing to grasp the 'truth' of the matter. Extreme examples I know, but I only mean to demonstrate that being open to ideas and offering the benefit of the doubt is not always right (or of value). I can't offer my empathy for a toxic ideology - I can't let that negative, hateful, twisted discourse into my heart without judgement.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte
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  6. #276
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I have not seen anyone here make that assumption, nor do I consider that assumption to be core to feminism as I've seen it.
    What I see instead is people will point to the woman physicist, or a businesswoman like Carly Fiorina, and hold them up as proof that gender bias no longer exists, since obviously women already can have whatever kind of career they like. All we have to do is look at nations like Pakistan that have had a female head of state whereas the US has not, to know that the experience of the top few (male or female) can be quite distinct from that of the majority of a population.

    I agree - both men and women are often dissatisfied with their jobs. I am a woman physicist who is very dissatisfied with my job, and I can assure you it has nothing to do with wanting to spend time with children. Many employees do want to spend more time with their children, and they are not all women. In fact, more and more men are admitting this and even expecting it, now that they will be judged less for the sentiment, and afforded the time to do so. The people whose careers are their lives, whether in science, business, politics, or any other field, will be in the minority, whether male or female. Your average joe or jane tends to want a family, personal, outside-of-work life of some sort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Are all people fundamentally equal in every way? Of course not. Is what we call gender a meaningful basis for distinguishing merits? I don't think so.
    I would like a dollar for every time I have posted something similar here. ( I could take my SO out for a nice dinner.) Gender is only one of the many attributes that make individuals different one from another, and not nearly the most important one.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  7. #277
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    The women who campaigned for an change in quality of life often did so alongside their husbands and children. Thus this was not an issue that brought men and women into conflict with each other. I do not see ending child labour, for example, as a feminist issue. Contemporary feminists, however, sometimes act as apologists for the most oppressive people in non-Western countries. I have seen feminists downplay slavery in Sudan, and deny the existence of a continuous slave trade within Africa. This, I believe, is due to the influence of postmodernism and the even more nauseous critical theory (another subject in itself).
    Issues like child labor and access to schooling were long considered "women's issues" because it was primarily women who advocated for them and worked to mitigate their harsh effects because of women's traditional role in caring for children. These were some of the issues that fueled women's desire for the vote, under the premise that public officials would continue to ignore their concerns as long as they lacked the power of even the ballot. As for contemporary slavery in Africa, you must be running into some odd feminists, or they are just pulling your leg. I know feminists who might prioritize some other issue, perhaps on the principle of its being more immediately tractable, but none who deny the seriousness of their reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Goodness no; I am against intermixing under any circumstance. My point is simply that feminism will live and die with the current liberal status quo.
    I would like for feminism to go away, too; along with efforts to stop racism, anti-semitism, anti-islamism, homophobia, ageism, able-ism, and every other form of arbitrary discrimination. I would like to see it all replaced by an understanding that everyone is an individual, and should be judged on his/her reality and merits, and not for membership in some group or other.

    Unfortunately we are not there yet.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  8. #278
    Senior Member Rambling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What I see instead is people will point to the woman physicist, or a businesswoman like Carly Fiorina, and hold them up as proof that gender bias no longer exists, since obviously women already can have whatever kind of career they like. All we have to do is look at nations like Pakistan that have had a female head of state whereas the US has not, to know that the experience of the top few (male or female) can be quite distinct from that of the majority of a population.

    I agree - both men and women are often dissatisfied with their jobs. I am a woman physicist who is very dissatisfied with my job, and I can assure you it has nothing to do with wanting to spend time with children. Many employees do want to spend more time with their children, and they are not all women. In fact, more and more men are admitting this and even expecting it, now that they will be judged less for the sentiment, and afforded the time to do so. The people whose careers are their lives, whether in science, business, politics, or any other field, will be in the minority, whether male or female. Your average joe or jane tends to want a family, personal, outside-of-work life of some sort.


    I would like a dollar for every time I have posted something similar here. ( I could take my SO out for a nice dinner.) Gender is only one of the many attributes that make individuals different one from another, and not nearly the most important one.
    I am also a woman physicist, with excellent degree. And I have been on the receiving end of sufficient mysogyny, patriarchy and authoritarianism to cause me to plan to leave and then leave two otherwise decent jobs during my career. The two male bosses were insecure men who were unable to work with strong intelligent women like me. They appear to me to feel and act threatened by a woman who can do a good job; they were incapable of relating except through flirtation and patronising remarks, they got disturbed by honest intelligent discussion and become passive-aggressive. The first expected me to accept open mysogyny; he openly admitted this to me. The second spent much time openly claiming that his degree outclassed mine; it didn't. Men with attitudes like this are what colour my view of the aims of feminism; I could have tried a lengthy lawsuit or I could move on and not waste my time in a nonsensical environment. I waited for a suitable opportunity and then left quietly for a different job in both cases.

    Those things have nothing to do with me 'wishing to spend time with my children'.

    Society has sexualised relations between men and women to the point that tinned music about one-to-one lust is all that is majored on. Okay, so have a man, have a woman, marry if you want to...but let *society* also teach us all how to have several decent friends of the opposite sex, how to work with the opposite sex (there are plenty of women who 'simper' lazily in the workplace, too!) how to respect the opposite sex and how to stop regarding them as some kind of public enemy only approachable through the types of social channels which are only appropriate to sexual advances...

    You can only marry one person (at a time); so the rest of your relationships cannot involve physical sex; let's get a focus on how to relate better to the *many* we cannot marry...
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  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    In fact, in some cases I think carefully considering the views behind a toxic belief system to be extremely dangerous. Should we be open to the views and ideology of neo-nazis or ISIS? If we must consider all possibilities equally we must accept that maybe they actually have things right and we are all failing to grasp the 'truth' of the matter.
    Absolutely - yes you should. If you aren't open to try to understanding them, then claiming they are "toxic belief systems" isn't going to be based on anything that they inherently are as belief systems in the first place, the only place villains exist is in the little stories we tell ourselves, and in fact if you cared to understand them you'd find that this is exactly how the two examples you gave persist in the first place - by telling themselves about villains on the other side without stopping to try to understand them, which is exactly why they are wrong, and if they happened to not be wrong, then the other side just really might be. Understanding a point of view is not the same as as accepting it as truth, just understanding why they think it is.

    Obviously, we don't all have the time to get into every side of every debate in the world, but if you are going to take a stance in a conflict, it's better off as an informed one.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    One thing that is non-negotiable for me is the concept of freedom of speech and freedom of expression. These things tend to be pushed by unsavory, totalitarian ideologies like fascism or communism. It makes society dumber and retards social progress, in addition to making harder for obstinate truth-seekers like myself. If you have to walk on eggshells to avoid offending anyone, speech becomes incredibly difficult. Yet, it is ideas regarding social change that are precisely the most likely to offend. Allowing the spread of only inoffensive ideas supports the status quo. I do not understand why more people do not see that.

    Any form of thinking that opposes these concepts, whether associated with the right or the left, is anathema to me. This is also often packaged with hostility to art, science and open dialogue, and I find hostility to such things I find to be highly suspect. Admittedly such suspicion is undoubtedly due to my personal biases.

    I support feminism as long as someone's feminism does not reject freedom of speech and freedom of expression.
    In principle I agree. Realistically, we live in a world were free speech is getting restricted less by government outlets and more and more by cultural trends and the private sector, and that make things complicated.

    If the consequence of someone saying something anti-feminist or racist is not jail or legal punishment but media outrage instead, how do you prevent that without restricting the free speech on the other side? If a board of investors want to fire a CEO for saying something like this because he has harmed their brand, should the government interfere? What if you find out that the school your sending your kid too has a history teacher who in addition to the required WW2 material also teaches his opinion that happens to be holocaust-denial, you and all the other parents complain about it, does the school get to fire him?

  10. #280
    Super Ape Luke O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    You believe this retarded shit why? and how does that exclude it from being inherently sexist? In fact i think that would make it even more sexist. LOL!!

    I think a good number of women just aren't interested in maths and sciences for completely understandable reasons. I believe you will be good at something you enjoy doing, so if your not interested you wont be good at it. There are women who are interested in it and I think they are perfectly capable of being good at it.



    Men and women both have different strengths and weaknesses I have a problem with society telling women they should be X because they think that's the best option for them. I think both men and women should have a choice and not forced fed by ideologies such a feminism.



    I really don't know but unlike people like you if she wanted to cook a dinner for her man I wouldn't call her incompetent and a loser like most feminists today.
    I'm glad you accept that there are women that are good at these things. But there are also women that would be good, but don't know it, and they greatly outnumber the men (since men aren't given the repeated message that all they'll be good at is serving their man and his children).

    You seem to see things in black and white. As I said, they are not being forced into these professions. The definition of feminism you seem to see is this ill-perceived tyranny of feminists over mankind.

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