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  1. #261

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Hah! This thread really has gone in a loop. Look, I said this many, many pages ago.
    When you're at your angriest you're at your stupidest, the repetition of a simple message is the best idea when that's the case.

    Although I think this poster is angry about family breakdown, probably for personal reasons, and identifying the wrong culprit.

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  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Here's one you left out: Feminism is bad for restricting women's choices, but women also don't have freedom of choice in their professions because men and women have biological inherent strengths and weaknesses.
    Biology doesn't supervene freedom of choice. It helps explain the choices we make.
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  4. #264
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Biology doesn't supervene freedom of choice. It helps explain the choices we make.
    What happens is that people think they know what behavior is in accordance with biology, and from there they become suspicious of all behavior that devaites from what they expect and decide to treat it as illegitimate.

    So far, in this thread, jixmixfix has expressed that kind of thinking in a couple of difference places. One of those places was where he answered my question about why the burden was on women to preserve the family by staying at home more instead of men, and he said it was the because of the natural strengths and weaknesses of men and women.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'll take those odds.

    Then again I'm a real man.
    There's a middle ground here: taking on the odds, but stacking your deck to give yourself the best chance of success. A real man picks his battles - there is a difference between courage and stupidity.

    Prenups, for example, should be a given. It is not true that they are always thrown out by a court, at least in NZ and the UK. If my hypothetical bride-to-be isn't mature enough to sign one, then I would consider calling off the engagement.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What happens is that people think they know what behavior is in accordance with biology, and from there they become suspicious of all behavior that devaites from what they expect and decided to treat it as illegitimate.
    I think my main point has been that the women on here who are very career-orientated are exceptions. Exceptional women use their own experience as a point of reference (@ceecee is a particularly disingenuous example here) and assume that all women want/need what they do. You can look at surveys - the majority of women report that they they don't like their jobs, want to work less and spend more time with their children. You can also look at things like major preference, where there is an obvious difference in what kinds of work men and women want to do, on average.

    What frustrates me is when people here highlight the exceptional woman who is a theoretical physicist, and say that all women should be like her. There happen to be group differences within humanity as well as individual differences, and both are significant enough to have an effect. It gives you a strong sense of agency to say that everybody is just an individual. But is that more important than accepting the truth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So far, in this thread, jixmixfix has expressed that kind of thinking in a couple of difference places. One of those places was where he answered my question about why the burden was on women to preserve the family by staying at home more instead of men, and he said it was the because of the natural strengths and weaknesses of men and women.
    I happen to agree with him. On average, more women are happy to take on (and are suited to) such a role than men.

    Liberals have a real complex about biology influencing destiny. This is an aside, but I actually think the defining difference between today's liberals and conservatives has nothing to do with economics, it is about whether you think people are fundamentally equal.

  7. #267
    El Papagayo Osprey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    What frustrates me is when people here highlight the exceptional woman who is a theoretical physicist, and say that all women should be like her. There happen to be group differences within humanity as well as individual differences, and both are significant enough to have an effect. It gives you a strong sense of agency to say that everybody is just an individual. But is that more important than accepting the truth?
    I do not see anyone claiming that all women should be like her.
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  8. #268
    Senior Member Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I think my main point has been that the women on here who are very career-orientated are exceptions.
    I don't think they are any more than men, or much more so. And the extent to which they are is most reasonably explained by culture and is something that we can expect to be changeable.

    But even I take your point to be true, I'd still have to ask why it matters. Why even bring it up? Is that an observation you intend to do nothing with? Or do you think people should act on that "fact" somehow?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Exceptional women use their own experience as a point of reference (@ceecee is a particularly disingenuous example here) and assume that all women want/need what they do.
    I have not seen anyone here make that assumption, nor do I consider that assumption to be core to feminism as I've seen it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    You can look at surveys - the majority of women report that they they don't like their jobs, want to work less and spend more time with their children. You can also look at things like major preference, where there is an obvious difference in what kinds of work men and women want to do, on average.
    You have to interpret results. First of all, do women report significantly different on that then men? (don't a lot of people hate their job?) If women hate their jobs more, does it have to do with the way women are treated? Is it something that should continue? And if there are different preferences, why do they exist in the first place?

    You make a common mistake. You present cross-sectional findings that something is the case, and then you act like it automatically follows that your explanation for it must be true. But a result does not automatically provide its own explanation. Everything that you are saying is biological could just as well be cultural based on these results. What's more, if what you're looking it isn't longitudinal, it doesn't even tell us if it has remained consistent over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    What frustrates me is when people here highlight the exceptional woman who is a theoretical physicist, and say that all women should be like her.
    I've never seen that happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    There happen to be group differences within humanity as well as individual differences, and both are significant enough to have an effect. It gives you a strong sense of agency to say that everybody is just an individual. But is that more important than accepting the truth?
    What I always say is that the degree of difference between the average of all men and the average of all women is smaller than the average degree difference between any two individuals. It's a drop in the bucket compared to everything else that makes up an individual, it's not worth dwelling on. And again, even when I'm saying that, I'm only talking about a degree of difference that may be the product of culture and is changeable.

    As for the part about me valuing individuality over truth, that's refreshing and comical. Usually I'm in arguments with libertarians who tell me that I am a crazy collectivist who hates individuality. Why do you suppose they perceive me that way and you the opposite? The problem with what you're saying is not that it compromises individuality, it's that it is based on biological inheritance. I am sociologist for crying out loud, I have to believe in structure, I have to believe in a culture that influences the options, belief, and choices of the individual. But what's key is that I am looking to culture to explain that, while you are looking to a very dubious biological explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I happen to agree with him. On average, more women are happy to take on (and are suited to) such a role than men.
    I don't believe that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Liberals have a real complex about biology influencing destiny. This is an aside, but I actually think the defining difference between today's liberals and conservatives has nothing to do with economics, it is about whether you think people are fundamentally equal.
    Are all people fundamentally equal in every way? Of course not. Is what we call gender a meaningful basis for distinguishing merits? I don't think so.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #269
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  10. #270
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Look Hard would be no exception in that case, there's maybe three or four other regular posters who act the exact same way, I'd say there's additionally maybe two or three more who dont add much than to slag anyone trying to make a point for having a point to make in the first place and think they are witty, clever bastards all aloof from it all in the process.

    Then you have other posters who post exclusively on topics which are pretty damn personal to them and take on a significance all out of proportion to what they would anyone else and what they really should expect others to feel about the matter, its part of the reason I got so irrate about the vagaries of "hostility" a whiles back which were passed off as mere "tweeking" of the forum policies and rules, its totally and utterly in keeping with a number of trending opinions in the world at large but I think its got the potential to be extremely prohibitive of any dissenting or even differing opinions.

    Its not surprising this happens, because the forum is used not really for abstract discussion most of the time but socialising, its part of the reason the social threads trumph the MBTI theory threads or that the threads in which the forum is essentially discussing itself are the most popular. Maybe MBTI brings people here but I'm guessing they stay for more than just that. Anyone visiting bars or restaurants might go on the strength of the menu or beverages in stock but the service and crack will determine if they stay or go back. Although while its not surprising this happens it's also why I'm not surprised there's such a ruckus around some of the topics too.
    Are you kidding? We're actually meant to take this shit seriously and engage in it? After my sex has been repeatedly insulted, after I've been dictated what my 'true' nature and beliefs are and been falsely accused of multiple, idiotic 'crimes against society', I'm meant to show respect and understanding to that person and their arguments? Fuck that. I'm sick of this expectation that we should be fair and balanced with every idea or rhetoric no matter how stupid, backwards and offensive it is.

    And you know what, I can actually accept some of the few vaguely sensible points that have been made. I do agree that, to an extent, there are some inherent gender differences and variations in preferences and inclinations between men and women. I do agree that women shouldn't be shamed for wanting to be stay at home mothers. I do agree that men should have equal rights to child custody. But the sensible stuff is all buried in so much irrational ranting, distortion, strawmen arguments, obtuse beliefs, and outright sexism that, strangely, I don't feel any desire to wade through it all to extend my good will. After I've been repeatedly instructed that, "feminists believe x and y", when I am a feminist and expressly do not believe x or y, my patience is already worn pretty thin. I mean, I'm being accused of secretly believing something I do not. The whole idea of having to defend myself against that (and prove it to be false) is so fucking ridiculous and infuriating.

    This whole thread is based on a troll-erific premise - productive discussion was never going to happen. Are you really surprised people are just resorting to poking the zoo animals?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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